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First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:23 am
by quattrobros
Ill be rebuilding my 3B within a month here and I'm a little confused on some things.

Ill be doing rods, main and rod bearings, new stock piston rings, stock pistons. Power goals are 400-500hp.

1. Main bearings: it seems most people just buy coated main bearings and pop them in with no machine work. Ive seen some people use the plastiguage stuff but the clearences always check out. I cant find one example of someone throwing in crank bearings and the clearances are wrong. What happens then?

2. Rod bearings: same question.

3. Pistons: from what ive seen most people get a cylinder hone with stock rings and they are good to go? Dont you have to check the cylinder wall clearance first to determine if they are still within spec. Is there any grinding on the rings involved with stock rings?

Seems like some people get the block tanked, decked, and honed and do the rest in their garage. While others have the machine shop do it all. Dont know if i can skip some steps or not since the build is mostly stock.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:54 pm
by varia
Of course before anything, you would have to inspect the head/block/crankshaft.
Coated bearings are good.
I use plastigage.
If the its within the spec, do a light honing (check the videos how to do it, if never done it before)
Bloch can be tanked, but thermal cleaning is something amazing.
Eric has a tons of info in his video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3pHb-qXZc8
or this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/CoolCarsHotGuitars/videos

Make sure everything is clean, no fluff, etc and use engine assembly lube

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:23 am
by Afterthought
In the past few 5 cyl I have done the following
•disassemble block and head make sure It’s within spec
•Order new rods, bearing, seals, new OE piston rings (I use forged rods, coated rod and main bearings )
•order new valves, valve stem seals (I use Ferrea 6000) ditch the stock ones
•machine shop install new valves, regrind head
•have the machine shop clean the bottom end and hone cylinders
•by the time I am doing the machine work I will have the flywheel, clutch ready ... this is because after bottom end is clean I’ll have the machine shop send out the entire rotating assembly (basically crank/rods/pistons/rings/flywheel/clutch/bolts/crank pulley) to a balance specialist and have everything balanced as a unit - it’s not very expensive in the grand scheme .

I’m not a professional by any means but this recipe has been working so far. The shop I use is too busy to assemble anything so I’ve been assembling myself carefully , checking clearance and also rotating the bottom end over after each time installing or tightening a rod bearing to make sure everything is free

Other things I have learned

1) When I upgraded my rods and found they fit a little tight on the wrist pins, and Jim said with aftermarket rods he always had to take them to the machine shop where they will polish and make them fit the wrist pins perfectly , they will be a little tight out of the box to allow for this .

2) a couple times machinist have told me if reusing the stock pistons and honing the cylinders, it is difficult to get the new rings to seat.
I haven’t had a problem that I know of , and I followed their procedure which is basically to get the engine started and running good and then putting some load on it . I never just let a new engine idle . I of course, check everything out , (good oil Pressure/coolant is bled) but I don’t start a new engine until I have the car ready to go out and get some varied rpm and load range (example low boost/but uphill). If I can’t drive it right away I will not let it sit at idle forever while I’m checking things , oil pressure is much higher at even 1800 or 2k rpm .

Lifters will probably be super loud , I let them bathe in oil before installing / starting

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:54 pm
by quattrobros
Thanks for all the input.

I took a closer look at the bottom end and the cylinder walls are pretty glazed over with no visible cross hatch. There is a pretty significant ridge on the thrust sides of the cylinders compared to the perpendicular sides or whatever its called.

I have an NG block with similar miles and i cannot even feel a ridge.

I'm starting to lean towards doing a fresh bore and getting new pistons also.

Any recommendations? Looks like JE and Wiseco offer non custom options that can be found pretty inexpensively compared to going custom order. The Wiseco only comes in 7.2:1 CR so thats not really an appealing option for my application.

The JEs (#302229) are 8.5:1 however they are have the FSR skirt and their website says the oil squirters must be removed or spaced out to accommodate. Anyone have experience with this? Or any options i dont know about?

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:20 pm
by carl
You could take a look at wossners they have a kit for the S2 81 up to 83.5mm @ 8:1cr. I have them in my engine, pretty solid pistons. I wouldn't build on an engine that has no crosshatch, you could just deglaze and run the ng but... If you're already buying pistons, might as well just do a fresh bore imo.
100% yes on using coated bearings.

Personally I like everything 0 balanced, that way I don't have to pull the whole engine apart again if I'd have to swap out the flywheel/pressure plate or damper.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:10 pm
by quattrobros
The NG block was just for comparison it has no glaze or ridge and will turn into a coffee table at some point. I dont plan on using it.

Im going to have a 3b crank 7A flywheel and most likley a modified AAN damper.

So you're saying get the damper and flywheel zero balanced and then get the crank balanced with the bob weights? That way i can change the damper and flywheel at some point? Will getting a lighter flywheel in the future change any of that?

I plan on doing some custom serpentine belt stuff and deciding on a damper configuration prior to the engine being in the car is difficult. Ideally I'd want to be able to change the damper in the future without throwing anything off.

I didnt know that was an option.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:46 pm
by PRY4SNO
Not sure if you've noticed these gems here on the forum, but Jeff Gerner himself did a fantastic break down of how he likes to build a bullet proof engine in four articles.

viewforum.php?f=32


For what it's worth, I wanted Wossner in the worst way when I was building my stroker. Ended up with Wiseco (came in the crate I bought). Could have just as easily been JE or Mahle. There are options out there... IMO, just get what works for your timeframe, budget and build then move on to the next thing on the list.

Edit:

I've always found this post by Iroz Sr. to be very informative as well, regarding balancing an I5 engine. Second post on the linked page.
https://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=475

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:35 pm
by quattrobros
I have read the ones by Jeff very helpful. Havent seen the second link ill have to take a look.

Piston wise i was more asking for part numbers of pre-produced pistons.

For example JE 302229 can be found in the $600 range on ebay.

Thanks for the links!

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:50 am
by carl
quattrobros wrote:future
quattrobros wrote:So you're saying get the damper and flywheel zero balanced and then get the crank balanced with the bob weights? That way i can change the damper and flywheel at some point? Will getting a lighter flywheel in the future change any of that?


If the new flywheel/damper is zero'd too then yea no effect, you wouldn't need to pull out the crank again and send it to re-balance as a whole assembly. The guy who balanced my damper did machine out the tab for the crank locking tool to get it to 0 though. So you'd likely need to lock the crank another way.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:54 pm
by quattrobros
Anyone know if a b5s4 clutch disc will work on a 7a flywheel with a sachs 707pp with an 01e?

They both seem to be 240mm in diameter with the 01e spline center and somewhere in the 8.2mm thickness range.

Any reason this wont work?

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:34 am
by DE80q
Isn't the B5S disk solid? As in no springs? That would make for very jerky engagement.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:20 pm
by Berserker
Here's what's in my UrS6. 7A FW, B5 RS4 disc, LUK 02-026 PP. The unknown in that equation is what exactly the pressure plate is.

https://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/24612.phtml

Steve Mills (RIP) did the research/work, and I've got that car now.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:56 pm
by quattrobros
Im simply looking for a clutch disc to work with the 7a flywheel and a sachs 707 PP with an 01e. Im looking for the highest hold with a single disc clutch.

Finding just a clutch disc for a 7a is pretty tough. So i figured it would be easier to find one for the b5s4 (aftermarket).

I have some good leads on discs now.

Ill make a project thread soon as im doing quite a bit.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:51 am
by PRY4SNO
Talk to Scotty at Advanced Automotion.

I went with ClutchNet, they swore up and down on the phone it would be good for 600 hp and still be smooth for parallel parking and hill starts, but they're out of business now so who the hell knows. I opted for ferametallic on both sides, 6-puck sprung.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:26 pm
by quattrobros
Clutchnet is now California Clutch. I emailed the guy with some questions and didnt like his attitude. Plus i heard alot of horror stories and really cant afford any delays anymore. Dont want to take the risk.

Sachs makes a sintered ceramic disc 881861000027 for the 707 pressure plate but its nearly $400 to get one.

Kennedy engineering, Advanced automotion, project B5 all have a ceramic type 6 puck disc im looking at.

Spec even said they could remake their stage 3 disc for the 7a but with sintered ceramic.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:07 am
by audifreakjim
Southbend, they use 707 pressure plates. Or Ringer Racing using a clutchmaster setup if you want a nice plate clutch

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:11 pm
by 90quattrocoupe
For your clutch stuff, talk to Mark Swanson at EFI Express. Even though I run a D2 S8 motor in my coupe, it uses 7A clutch and pressure plate type parts. He was able to supply me with what I needed.

Greg W.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:52 pm
by quattrobros
Ran into a few potential issues and need some input.

While assembling the bottom end the crank spins freely up until i tap in main bearing #4 it gets very rough. But once i torque all the caps down everything gets free again. Is this an issue? I feel like the combined thrust bearings make that shell stiffer and it doesn't get fully round until torqued.

Also according to plastigage my main bearing clearances are around .017 with #4 being at .015

This is within the factory specs but everything i read says a performance engine should be between .02 to .03

They are 034 coated bearings. I'm debating leaving it as is or getting a set of king .25mm undersized bearings. This should put me at around .025 for clearance.

Im using arp studs and i had a line hone done along with a crank polish so im surprised its on the tight side of things.

Thoughts?

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:49 am
by MikeB25
My AAN bottom end is almost identical: ARP studs, line hone, crank polish, 034 mains. My clearances were similar:
#1 0.00175
#2 0.0016
#3 0.0015
#4 0.00175
#5 0.0015
#6 0.00175

I didn't try spinning the crank until everything was torqued so I don't know if mine got rough prior to torquing. I don't think it matters, though.
As far as the clearances, I understand that people have run high HP on stock bottom ends so I feel that the factory specs will be sufficient.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:14 pm
by quattrobros
Thats what im thinking too i think im just going to leave it as is.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:30 pm
by quattrobros
Anyone ever install an autotech adjustable cam gear?

all my timing marks line up except for the one on the valve cover and the gear. I can get it to line up with the gear advanced a few degrees. Is this normal?

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:52 pm
by Berserker
I'd think the only way the gear would line up perfectly would be at a 0° advance/retard setting. Start going away from stock, then the timing mark moves. I don't own one, though, so no direct experience.

Re: First time building a 5cyl

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:11 am
by quattrobros
i went ahead and got a stock gear to compare to. noway to tell without it.