Eric's V8 CQ

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Eric's V8 CQ

Postby Grillage » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:07 am

Well I finally found a recipient for the ABH I took out of my 93 V8.

This 1990 CQ was delivered yesterday (bought from member pitgrrrl here) along with a LOT of dirt from sitting a number of years. The car blew a headgasket many years ago and sat waiting for a swap that never happened. Cylinder head, Intake and Exhaust Manifolds and some other engine parts were sold off and I have a 7a block remaining.

the car will need a paint job at some point as there are two spots of the paint being totally gone (though a B4 hood swap solves one of them).

The speedlines are all there but 2 were flat so I put my spare Cabriolet wheels on for now

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So I set to washing the grime off - I did one half first to show the difference:
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And After...
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Today I will do the same massive cleaning on the interior - which is in pretty darn good shape too...
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The plan is for the ABH to go in there..
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I have also pulled a bunch of parts from an ABZ...
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I plan to use the 01A in the car and need to come up with solutions for:

Flywheel - Likely will source an ABZ flex plate and use the 034 insert unless I can find an ABH / PT flywheel (but do those work with the 01A or just 016?)

Engine Management - planning on using the covers from the ABZ so coils rather than distributor. I have the ABZ ECU and complete wiring harness too so I don't know if I can make that work or if I'll need to go VEMS or some other Standalone

Mounts - I can get the B3/ABZ mounts from 034 but this is an ABH and they have different mounting provisions. I believe the ABH and ABZ Drivers side are the same so perhaps I can use the 034 bracket on the one side and have something fabricated for the other side.

I will have a host of other questions as I go but these are first and foremost.

wish me luck!
Last edited by Grillage on Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:16 am, edited 27 times in total.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - cleaning it up!

Postby Grillage » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:59 pm

More Progress today on the interior.
Spent a great deal of time with the shop vac removing the mouse nest in the glove box and all the nuts they left everywhere.
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Trying to take the seats out and both fronts work partially. Neither move front to rear but conveniently I was able to get the bolts out of the sliders to remove the seats.
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Took the carpet out and went to the local car wash for some deep pressure wash cleaning.
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When I hung it up to dry a bunch of the backing was peeling off - is this going to be a problem?
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So I got all the seats out eventually and all of the interior bits for a good deep cleaning
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The carpet is wet in the Passengers side front and both rear seats and I hope to figure out why pretty quickly.
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I have taken this all out to dry but will it be useful again or should I just go without?
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Here's the engine bay - Like I said, it's missing a TON of stuff so V8 it is.
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Last edited by Grillage on Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - cleaning it up!

Postby Mcstiff » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 pm

Looks like it's cleaning up nicely. Glad it didn't go to the scrappers.

I would not bother reinstalling the old felt, either go without or find a modern alternative. K Simmonds on S2 forum ditched it and peeled the backing off his carpet http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39279
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - cleaning it up!

Postby PRY4SNO » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:43 am

Dynamat (or equivalent) for the floor.

Nice work, as usual!
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - cleaning it up!

Postby Grillage » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:06 pm

More progress today - hit the junkyards to get parts and did more cleaning.

picked a '93 and an '88 - both 90s.
got a B4 hood and radiator core support as well as the trim for under the headlights - is this all I need for the conversion? (besides the grill)
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Also got replacement for some broken and missing interior bits.
Trip Computer from the 88 as well as the drivers side undershelf (which was missing)

Then put the carpet back in with some of the underpadding - If I can actually get the car to run I'll put in new sound deadening foam (and thanks for the feedback above!).

I believe that the source of the water was that the hood cowl was totally stuffed with twigs and leaves and nuts (etc.) which plugged the ability to drain. The next way out for the water is through the air intake which sends the water into the passengers footwell and through the ducts into the rear seats.

Anyway, with everything dried out I reinstalled the carpet and interior bits...
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the seats are still out waiting for some conditioning. they look great and are keeping the other black seats in my basement company (B4 Cabriolet and C4 URS seats)
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While at the yard I grabbed a big piece of black leather from a 95 A6 that matches my Cabriolet seats - i have a big rip in the drivers seat so I hope to do a patch. that piece of leather is sitting on the seat in the pic.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - cleaning it up!

Postby PRY4SNO » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:56 pm

Love a day at the wreckers. Wish the local ones actually had decent old chassis cars from time to time.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - cleaning it up!

Postby Grillage » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:42 am

PRY4SNO wrote:Love a day at the wreckers. Wish the local ones actually had decent old chassis cars from time to time.


They happen to have a TON of old stuff right now. It's feast or famine - both yards had a Cabriolet for a time there. I never see those.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Grillage » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:43 am

A couple questions on the biggest stumbling blocks - Engine Management and Flywheel...

I will be using the 01A transmission so I need to get a flywheel that works. As far as I can tell, there are a couple options on the Flywheel...
1. use the 034 Insert (for which I need to purchase an ABZ Flex Plate since I am running an ABH block.
2. find a PT or ABH Dual Mass OEM Flywheel - but will this work with the 01A or just 016?
3. Find a Fidanza flywheel though they are no longer made.


As for Engine Management, I feel like I have narrowed down my options...
1. Go VEMS or some other standalone solution
2. Use the ABZ ECU I bought from the yard and buy 034's manual swap chip
3. Buy a euro 32v S8 ECU and VAG-COM it to manual - then bypass the immobilizer.

Can anyone weigh in on these please? what is possible, most realistic etc?
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby alxdgr8 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:29 pm

I believe from my previous research that any flywheel that works in an 01E will work in an 01A. However, an 016 designed one will not (OEM).
I've got the Fidanza, but the 034 option should work just fine too.

As far as the ECU goes, I'm not sure that anything extra is needed for the ECU. Talk to Kirk (thegerman), I forget exactly what he said he did. I would go that route first since it's probably the easiest.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Grillage » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:08 pm

Thanks Alex,
Did you have to use the pilot bearing adapter too?

I read. Kirks thread (which is awesome) and it looks like he did the ABZ ECU with the 034 manual swap and stage 1 chip. That seems the easiest option. I wonder if I should worry about running the ABH with the ABZ ECU though. I guess if the injectors are the same the fuel is all good, the spark is all from ABZ parts too. I wonder if the cams are the same?
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Grillage » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:55 pm

Got the flywheel in the mail today! Scored an unused fidanza.
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So I think I understand some issues with the engine management that will cause me to go standalone...

My only OEM ECu option is th a8 ecu I grabbed from the junkyard. However, the a8 ecu needs a cam sensor and a 60-2 signal to work.
I could get the exhaust cams and cam sensor from an A8 to solve one problem.
I guess i should have gotten the 034 flywheel adapter and an A8 flex plate (which has a 60-2 ring) and I'd have been able to run that ecu. But I didn't do that stuff.

What inputs will VEMS require if I go that route?
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Grillage » Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:30 pm

Got a few things done this weekend.

Was able to shave these fellas down to make room for the ABZ intake manifold:
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Also shaved down the upper oil pan to keep it from hitting the subframe when it comes time. (and changed the gaskets)
Not the prettiest job, but it will work.
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Also dealt with the crank bushing. I was uncertain as to why I needed the pilot bearing adapter at first but now it seems clear what it does. It pushes the pilot bearing 14mm rearward. I am guessing the 016 has a slightly longer shaft. I have also read that I will need to machine a longer slave cylinder pushrod - is that so?

Anyway, to get the bushing out of the crankshaft I finally got the old grease and socket trick to work. I had tried and failed at this when I did my Cabriolet manual swap and was failing here too until I introduced a little strip of silicone rescue tape. For those who may not know this trick, you first fill the blind hole in the end of the crankshaft where the bushing site with grease. Them you take a socket (17mm in this case) that just barely fits inside the bushing and a socket extension on that socket (backwards) The idea is that by ramming the socket into the grease in the blind hole the hydraulic pressure will force the bushing out. I kept having it ooze out the little voids where the socket and extension met. I used a square of red silicone rescue tape in between the two and it popped it out in about 4 hits.
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Ta Dah!

Here are the 034 Pilot Bearing adapter and the bushing I got out of the crankshaft. As I mentioned before, the only difference is that the 034 version is 14mm deeper on the end.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Marc » Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:51 pm

count the flywheel teeth. it needs to be divisible by 8 (stock is 136 on the factory v8 flywheels, 135 for the inline 5's for the same reason, divisible by 5). if it is, vems can trigger off it. you wont need cam sync, vems can be configured wasted spark on this engine.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Grillage » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:36 pm

Just verified, 136 it is! That sounds like good news. So I won't need a trigger wheel other than this?
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Marc » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:50 pm

Grillage wrote:Just verified, 136 it is! That sounds like good news. So I won't need a trigger wheel other than this?



well. ideal would be if you had a cam sync, but yes it will work with just those two signals (reference pin and flywheel teeth).

Full disclosure: the modern auditrigger vems setups use the cam sensor for more than just cam sync. its tied to the reference pin signal to 'filter' the input so that the ecu is only looking for the pin in the small window of the cam sensor. this tends to filter out some of the noise issues that were present with the old vems auditrigger setups from when they first started doing this.

so, long answer is yes it will work, but you should be prepared to get some high rpm trigger errors that may not be resolvable without a cam sync.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Grillage » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:07 pm

Marc wrote:
Grillage wrote:Just verified, 136 it is! That sounds like good news. So I won't need a trigger wheel other than this?



well. ideal would be if you had a cam sync, but yes it will work with just those two signals (reference pin and flywheel teeth).

Full disclosure: the modern auditrigger vems setups use the cam sensor for more than just cam sync. its tied to the reference pin signal to 'filter' the input so that the ecu is only looking for the pin in the small window of the cam sensor. this tends to filter out some of the noise issues that were present with the old vems auditrigger setups from when they first started doing this.

so, long answer is yes it will work, but you should be prepared to get some high rpm trigger errors that may not be resolvable without a cam sync.



That all makes sense. I can grab the cam sensor from an A8 along with the exhaust cams and block offs. That is a much easier solution than trying to machine a tone ring into the fidanza and drilling holes into the 01A for the sensor.

So next step is to get the flywheel and clutch installed (just ordered a Southbend kit), get the motor in place and figure out how the hell I'm going to make motor mount brackets.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby kieron_32v » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:24 am

Just a heads up on that cam sensor for the abz, there are 2 versions of the trigger wheel I believe. The early ones like I have on my 95 engine have a single window, and the later ones, I don't know from when have 4 oddly spaced windows. From memory I have looked on etka and I think a 1.8t wheel has 1 window and will work. This is only of info of course if vems can only handle 1 trigger per 2 revs for cam sync, but that's how it is on my IIc.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Marc » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:44 am

kieron_32v wrote:Just a heads up on that cam sensor for the abz, there are 2 versions of the trigger wheel I believe. The early ones like I have on my 95 engine have a single window, and the later ones, I don't know from when have 4 oddly spaced windows. From memory I have looked on etka and I think a 1.8t wheel has 1 window and will work. This is only of info of course if vems can only handle 1 trigger per 2 revs for cam sync, but that's how it is on my IIc.



right, I should have mentioned that. you are looking for the single window variety. furthermore, for the filtering I'm describing to work the reference pin has to fall within the opening of the cam sensor window.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - Flywheel and ECU questions

Postby Grillage » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:56 am

Got it. There is a 97 A8 in my local yard and I already yanked the sensor itself but forgot my gear puller so I couldn't get the cogs off the exhaust cams.
I'll go back this weekend and grab them.

As for the syncing of the pin and the window, worst case scenario if they don't line up I can just move the pin right? It's not so much that the pin is in a specific place - more that I know where it is in relation to TDC right?
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - V8 - Making Progress

Postby Grillage » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:20 pm

I got to the junkyard today and managed to grab the ABZ Drivers side Exhaust Cam and the sensor from that side...
Pics...
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Is this the right version for the application we've been talking about?

Also, does anyone know if I need the ABZ Passenger's side cam too? the junkyard car was in a Passengers Side front end collision and it is going to be really difficult to get to the timing belt cover to remove. The size of the cams on that side are the same (I got the block off plates from that side and they fit perfectly).

Anyone know if the cams are the same as far as timing? I'd love to not have to mess with that side.

Also, got a bunch of stuff ordered and some has arrived. The Southbend Stage 2 has arrived and once the Autohaus AZ order shows up I'll be able to install flywheel and clutch and get the engine in there. then I'll start to mock up engine mounts with cardboard or balsa wood or something.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - V8 - Making Progress

Postby kieron_32v » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:40 pm

I'm afraid not, that's the weird multi window one same as a 1.8t. The one I have is a solid disc with one slot about 10mm wide. Cam timing should be the same as any other vag engine of the era. Dots on cam gears facing each other across flats old head surface. Do you have. the cam locking fixtures? 3341 iirc.
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - V8 - Making Progress

Postby Grillage » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:08 pm

How about this one from the 2.7T. Look closer to correct?

Image
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-C5_A6-Qua ... /ES284084/
I wonder if it's the same size
CURRENT
1995 90 Quattro
1994 Cabriolet - 5 speed
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - V8 - Making Progress

Postby Grillage » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:12 pm

I'm going with yes - same size. According to ETKA the 2.7T and the A8 use the same hall sensor - part # 058905161B so I can only assume the impulse rotors would be the same size regardless of the amount of windows it has.

Now, does anyone know about the passenger exhaust cam and whether it's the same between the V8 and the A8? (ABH and ABZ)

for future posterity, the A8 piece is part # 077 905 234 - the 2.7T is 078 905 234 F

and no, I don't have the timing tools. I'll need to get a hold of a set to do the belt and all now that I'm moving cams around. I was hoping to get the car running first since I really don't know what the hell I'm doing. oh well!
CURRENT
1995 90 Quattro
1994 Cabriolet - 5 speed
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - V8 - Making Progress

Postby Grillage » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:36 pm

Looks like the timing is different...

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To the Junkyard!
CURRENT
1995 90 Quattro
1994 Cabriolet - 5 speed
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Re: Ben's Coupe Quattro - V8 - Making Progress

Postby Grillage » Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:13 pm

Did a little test fitting this morning.

It's clear that I need to cut out the ABS bracket. the Battery tray is okay now but the intake plumbing will make it need to go away too.
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Starting to see the path toward engine mounts but I really need to put the exhaust manifolds on to see how it will really work.
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The biggest concern I have is that there are bolts that sit right on the subframe...
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Anyone have any been there done that advice on the subframe rubbing?
CURRENT
1995 90 Quattro
1994 Cabriolet - 5 speed
1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
2011 A4 Avant


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