1983 URQ Alpine White/Mocha 20VT / VEMS / EFR

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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby PRY4SNO » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:44 am

Afterthought wrote:Starting to put together the engine. Looking for torque values... Was planning on just using the s2.co.uk workshop manual. I think the AAN and 3B (and 7A) are the same for all the torque values?
Actually the gasket set I have is for an AAN too :huh: hopefully I can get by with this.

For the Arp head studs I'm going to do, 55 lb ft (3 stages 25, 40 then 55) then re-torque after a few heat cycles.


Torque values for the engine fasteners should be the same.

However, with the ARP studs, you'll want a higher torque value than 55#. ARP recommends 80# (in three equal stages) using their lube.

Going off ARP's instructions:
ARP wrote:6. Lubricate the stud threads, nuts and washers with ARP ULTRA-TORQUE FASTENER ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT.
Then install the washers and the nuts onto the studs and tighten them hand tight. ARP recommends using the
ARP ULTRA-TORQUE FASTENER ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT that is provided with each kit as opposed to
motor oil. This is due to higher friction on the studs as well as inconsistencies in the clamping force of
the fasteners when motor oil or other low quality lubricants are used.
PRELOAD (TORQUE) RECOMMENDATIONS
7. Following the manufacturers recommended torque sequence tighten the nuts in three equal steps to 80 ft lbs
with ARP ULTRA-TORQUE FASTENER ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT.


Source: http://arp-bolts.com/kits/instructions. ... ordID=1185
**note: both style of the inline 5 kits are the same torque value.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby audifreakjim » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:03 am

Afterthought wrote:
audifreakjim wrote:They should not bind at all. I have always had the machine shop hone the rods to match the wrist pins. They should be a little tight out of the box to make this possible.

Dang, looking into this then. Haven't sealed anything up yet.


Yeah, every machinist I have talked to said this usually needs to happen.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Dave » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:25 pm

looks like you are using an AAN oilpan... why not the 3b? I thought even the URQ had interference problems with the AAN oilpan(to the radiator)...
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:48 pm

Dave wrote:looks like you are using an AAN oilpan... why not the 3b? I thought even the URQ had interference problems with the AAN oilpan(to the radiator)...


Dave, I'll look and see if there is a P/N on the pan I'm running.
I thought it was a 3b? I don't know what car this engine came out of, it came with my project.
This pan has baffles but does not have that plastic tray below the crank and does not have a windage tray, which led me to believe it was a 3B. It "should" be fine with the radiator (if you're referring to the pan extension? ) it doesn't have that.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Dave » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:06 pm

3b and 7a have the pan extention, to allow the same oil capacity but also clearing the radiator.
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:28 pm

This is what happens when you think "I'll find a can or aerosol paint to touch up the engine bay a bit."
The result is a complete respray of the engine bay in factory color.

Engine bay was completely sanded and prepped, then wiped down with dirt and grease remover, wiped dry, blown dry.
Then wiped down with a tack rag. Then sprayed in sealer.
Image


Then coated in factory paint.
Image

Dave wrote:3b and 7a have the pan extention, to allow the same oil capacity but also clearing the radiator.

Well I'm all crossed up now. It has no number on it. So if it is an AAN pan, it id not have the windage tray. And also didn't have the plastic thingy that bolts to the pan. I have a pan I can use with the extension but its not all purty. damnit. Ill take a look at the general dimensions of the pans later.
Last edited by Afterthought on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:26 pm

So Dave it sounds like most likely I want to ditch my super clean AAN pan and just use the 3B , 7A pan. I want to use the windage tray too? Or no?
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby chaloux » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:33 pm

You want to make sure you have the larger diameter washers on those head studs as well. This allows you to have no head mushrooming issues at 80ftlb.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Dave » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:11 am

the pan you have should have a part number on the outside of it... My understanding has always been that all small chassis cars need the 3b/7a style oil pan to clear the side mount radiator. Hell even the larger chassis c3 needed it with its side mount radiator.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby ringbearer » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:16 am

Scope creep in full effect ;)

Looks fantastic!
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:16 pm

Dave wrote:the pan you have should have a part number on the outside of it... My understanding has always been that all small chassis cars need the 3b/7a style oil pan to clear the side mount radiator. Hell even the larger chassis c3 needed it with its side mount radiator.


I'll look again for he PN but after looking at it you're right. The pan is just a little bit wider , not much but enough to cause issues with the radiator.
I am going to see if I can get my spare 7A pan cleaned and flushed out. There is one broken bolt in it that I need to see if I can get out first. One of the 4 that holds down that plastic tray.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby alxdgr8 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:08 pm

Now that's what I should've done to my engine bay! Looks great!
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:00 pm

alxdgr8 wrote:Now that's what I should've done to my engine bay! Looks great!


I bought the cans to use for Misc. touch up as well.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:03 pm

Cleaned up some parts. Had to get my pan cleaned, the nice shiny one I had IS the wrong one. Thanks dave, glad i realized that now.
Still working to locate the proper pickup tube to go with the 7/a 3B pan. I dont know which it is because I can't see the part number.

Image

Image

The reason why I was hoping to fit the AAN pan.
Image
Image
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:12 pm

I now have 2 extra AAN pans. If anyone needs one, PM me. Also have an RR airbox that I hate to but I would let go.

And I need to source another 7A pan .

Next step is to finish the prep work on the euro bumpers so I can get them sprayed and FINALLY start putting my engine bay back together.
Should have a load of goodies coming from Marc with some odds and ends I need to get the subframe and all that back together.

Also, im completely out of money but it may be time to see if I can find a way to get a turbo now rather than fabricate a downpipe to fit with this exhaust only to change in the rear future.

Wondering if anyone has any ideas, looking at something like a Borg Warner 6758 or 7163 range, Garrett GTX3076? For some reason I am specifically drawn to the EFR 7163.
Previously ran a GT3071R (0.63 A/R) on my old coupe and was very happy with the characteristics of that. I wonder how that compares to these two turbos. I have a goal of around the 400 WHP mark, pump gas, but I wouldn't mind leaving some room for more someday. Looks like from the graphs I've seen the larger EFR turbo still builds faster than ever the GTX wheel garrett 3076. I don't really know how to study these things. Any thoughts?
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby PRY4SNO » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:48 am

Afterthought wrote:Wondering if anyone has any ideas, looking at something like a Borg Warner 6758 or 7163 range, Garrett GTX3076? For some reason I am specifically drawn to the EFR 7163.
Previously ran a GT3071R (0.63 A/R) on my old coupe and was very happy with the characteristics of that. I wonder how that compares to these two turbos. I have a goal of around the 400 WHP mark, pump gas, but I wouldn't mind leaving some room for more someday. Looks like from the graphs I've seen the larger EFR turbo still builds faster than ever the GTX wheel garrett 3076. I don't really know how to study these things. Any thoughts?


When I did my research for turbos there was nothing for info on the EFR series save for a few posts on Subaru (Perrin Performance and FullRace) and Evo forums (Erne @ APR). Little if any hard data on the 7163 since it was brand new.

Rolling the dice, I bought one from Mike @ Ringer Racing and lent my turbo (7163) to Hank for testing. From there they've exploded in popularity. :D




Following are some quotes from Hank during the development phase, I'm sure they've refined the numbers since then.

Hank wrote:Yeah, the EFR is looking fun. I can't wait. My test car has a stock URQ intercooler in it which is proving to be a lag inducer, but putting it against a HTA3076r it is almost identical in spool. I anticipate a real intercooler will add 400-500 rpm of spool and make a ton more power. My guess is around 3800 on a 2.2L and around 3500 on a 2.5 like you are building. 07k I am hoping for around 3350



Hank wrote:Solid is HTA3076r on .82, dotted is EFR7163. Both done at 240kpa, or approximately 22psi. I can grab It will keep making power, I just need more e85

Image



Hank wrote:All done on e85, but the boost is still at only 24psi, which should be well within the realm of what gas could do. The timing is aggressive, but I still think this is a 450whp on pump turbo. I just got back from a test drive with it, and it is a really neat one. Much more responsive than the HTA3076r on a .82 but you can feel the extra power, especially from 7000-8500. I have it turned down to 21psi currently so I can rev to 8500 instead of being limited to 7000 with 24psi( needs more fuel pump), but the power feels great. Especially pleasing the shift recovery of the turbo. Looks great! You will love this on a 2.5L
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby DE80q » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:10 am

If you are still looking for a pickup to use with the 7A pan, the NG pickup works very well. That's what I'm using with mine.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:57 pm

DE80q wrote:If you are still looking for a pickup to use with the 7A pan, the NG pickup works very well. That's what I'm using with mine.

How about the WX pickup tube?

I found my other pickup tube. Digging through my shop to find a part is worse than it sounds. Alex has seen it, it makes me just want to throw away 90% of whats in there.
Anyways, conveniently, this one has no part number on it. Not sure how to ID but the one on the left may be what I want.
Image
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:28 pm

We'll small updates.
I dont have enough funds to upgrade the turbo right now. I want this car to be well rounded when it goes together and I just can't spend everything in one place. But, as soon as funds do allow I'm thinking of an EFR7163 with a quick spool valve, unless I am missing something I should be able to run this configuration with the internal wastegate on that turbo.

Also had to ditch the oil pan I had. It was a real piece of shit because the previous owner had bottomed it out. And in order to replace, he had used epoxy to seal on an aluminum patch then had it welded. Well, on the inside what I have is epoxy that's in a bonded state but Im worried it will heat up and break off and end up somewhere I don't want it. Could toast my engine in a matter of seconds, So its not worth the risk to me. I want to take my time with this engine and make sure everything goes together 110%
Was able to get another 7A pan with pickup tube so hopefully it ships in a reasonable amount of time.
old pan:
Image

New "thingy" thanks Marc!
Image

Saw this today. Must have missed it before but I would have expected the shop to mention it when they had my head. Not impressed with that.
Image
Last edited by Afterthought on Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Wheeljack » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:36 pm

There is something that sounds good about alpine white, a efr7163 twin scroll iwg, a qsv, and an ur quattro. I like the way you think...

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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby varia » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:55 pm

Wheeljack wrote:There is something that sounds good about alpine white, a efr7163 twin scroll iwg, a qsv, and an ur quattro. I like the way you think...

Image


omg! that monster
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:33 am

Wheeljack wrote:There is something that sounds good about alpine white, a efr7163 twin scroll iwg, a qsv, and an ur quattro. I like the way you think...

Image


Is that your car? It looks like a thread update is due!! ;)
Is that wagner intake manifold?

The EFR is a really expensive turbo but that is why I'm going to wait until I can afford the right one not go somewhere in the middle.
The price is also not that bad considering what you're getting. Since there is no need for a blowoff valve or wastegate ($300 + $400 for TiAL units) I realise that it would cost more to get a GTX turbo and upgrade my wastegate (may not be necessary to upgrade that though?) and on top of that I find most BOVs obnoxious. If I wanted to drive around making that sound all the time I'd get a subaru :lol:
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby tdicup » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:12 pm

Hi Pat. This is looking very nice. What machine shops in Bellingham do you recommend? We are ready to prep the head and balance things, then get started on assembly.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:56 am

For my first AAN rebuild I used Reed Auto machine in Bellingham off Irongate. I like the guy and he seems to know his stuff but sadly my engine got put on the back burner and it took months to get just a hone on the block and the valve job done. For this reason I won't be going back. What they did is continue to crank out work for the shops with a 2-3 day turnover while my stuff sat in the back. I understand keeping your main customers happy but 3 months before touching it is far beyond reasonble.

If you are out in the lynden area there is a machine shop in the back of the Napa, JC Machine. That is where I took this block and head. They did a good job, reasonable price, 2 weeks or so.

Perpetual Balance is who did the balancing. Only takes a couple days. The will need the crank, at least one Rod, one piston, and one set of rings, a set of bearings , crank pulley, flywheel pressure plate and clutch disc to balance.http://www.perpetualbalance.com

Useful balancing info:
http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/121985.phtml
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:11 pm

Well haven't had much progress due to a project at work but been sourcing parts here and there. I have almost everything I need now to go back together proper except:
-Brake Prop valve
-Coil pack set-up (will probably get LS2's from Marc)
-Turbo (Still thinking ERF7163, V-band inlet-outlet, only downside I see to that is I can't do the twin scroll with V-band)
-Koni Struts (on the way from marc)
-AFR gauge


Got my fenders mostly finished prepping.
ImageImage

I have two spares that I paid an arm and a leg for, sent a message to Hank to see if he might need them in trade for a discount on some parts but no reply.. So if anyone is in need I have a set of two fronts, one helios and one red. Other option is to just keep them, you never know when a 4000 or something will come along :)
Image

Lots of good stuff has arrived:




Tommis billet cam gear, Stock AAN CPS, Clutch Slave cylinder and line, Clutch Master cylinder, tie rod ends ,
FPR. Dont know if I'm going to make my own fuel rail or what.
Image
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Image


Really swesome manifold I got from Lucidmatt. I liked this manifold alot because it has no provision for a wastegate so it's perfect for the EFR set-up.
Only issue is I can't do the 7163 on the T-3 housing so I may have this converted to v-band

Lots of 3" stainless bends, 4' straight, 2x 02 bungs, 2x flex joints, 2x V-band clamp kits
Image
Last edited by Afterthought on Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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