4 FOX SNAKES - Ross' 20vt 4kq

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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby jretal » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:43 am

There are several issues w/ the 60-2 trigger wheel setup on the crank pulley.

To me, the biggest issue is the wheel is attached (via bolts or weld) to the "stationary" non-isolated piece of the pulley, and then the outter ring is left to isolate as it should. The issue that arises here is that there isn't enough clearance between the 60-2 wheel and the portion of the pulley where the belts ride. So when you're running the motor at various RPMs, the vibrations of the belts/motor/etc will cause the outter portion to deflect, and (from what I could tell) cause contact to the 60-2 ring. So regardless of whether its welded or held on w/ the tiny 2mm screws they used, it's only a matter of time until you fatigue the connection point and cause it to break.

I had this setup fail twice on me at the track... one year apart. The first time the machine shop was able to redrill and install 3mm bolts. The second time, the bolts snapped off again and sent the head of one through my timing belt. Thankfully, it didn't cause the timing belt to shred! But I had to bring it back to the SAME machine shop, and this time he welded the %hit out of it.

I think there needs to be two things done on those pulleys. One, machine away more material from the outter/isolated portion of the pulley to give more clearance between it and the 60-2 wheel. Two, BALANCE the pulley assembly itself and make sure there are ZERO deflections when run at varioius RPMs WITH the 60-2 wheel permanently attached. Obviously this won't isolate the different stresses that are put on this once belts are tightened on, but it'll help... at least in my mind, though it's been a few years since I've dont any of this since graduating college :-P.
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby vt10vt » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:36 pm

Hank wrote:The "ive never seen this before" sucks because when ever I say it as a business owner, I feel like nobody believes me :)

I have become slightly more understanding to 034s shortcomings as a small business owner, there is simply not enough time or manpower to give all products 100% of the due testing cycles and variants AND still make money. That said, I pull products that are problematic. 034 keeps circulating them it seems like and even making more problematic products.

^^ This, especially when youre in the business of taking an idea, engineering it, prototyping, reengineering, then manufacturing it, selling it retail and, on top of all that, providing customer support to a crowd who are just as likely to throw a bitch fit on a forum somewhere as report the problem back to you first. Oh, also you need to turn a profit big enough to keep the lights on and the CNCs running.

Obviously that doesnt excuse all issues that have come up, but people would probably be a bit more understanding had they "walked a mile."
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4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby audifreakjim » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:56 pm

Oh how you all forget how hard it used to be to get a trigger wheel setup in our motors. 034 making those wheels was as ground breaking as what Hank is doing with 07k motors. Some failed, many didn't. Mine has 40k miles on it and counting. I have heard of many repairs required but it didn't matter because we were just happy to have DIS standalone ECU!
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:03 pm

Ok boys, here we go. I'm the new owner of Chaloux's 4000 beast. Let me start by apologizing for the potentially intermittent posting on here. I will probably get busy and lose track from time to time. Its also a lot of pressure following in the footsteps of Mr. Chaloux :hail:

So here we go, this initial post will be a long one to catch us all up on the slightly ridiculous and frustrating first few days of ownership. So Matt and I decided to do the transaction in St Louis. He had family stuff going on there and it saved me about 850 miles of driving. Plus I'm sure it provided a nice long drive for Matt to say his farewell to the car, whilst (hopefully) beating the snot out of a couple unsuspecting innocent bystanders (ie WRX's, mustangs and whoever else was on the road.)

So Matt picks me up at the airport in St Louis and I get to meet his nice family + one. His wife agrees to drive the TDI while Matt and I do some freeway tuning. Its kind of hilarious doing WOT freeway runs with traffic all around and no brakes. Read: sketchy.
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:14 pm

So the first 6 hours of the drive went without a hitch. I was stoked to be driving the new car but a little bit bored driving across MO and Kansas with my Valentine 1 chirping every few miles and no one to play with.

About 11pm the first night I catch out of the corner of my eye a dog or huge coyote bolting across the road from the median and I'm doing 80mph. I slightly correct the car into the rumble strip and just glance off of the dog. Holy shitballs :o . The dog or whatever had to be dead. I pulled off right away to assess the damage and am so surprised to find out that there is basically zero damage to the car, save for a small split in the rear of the driver side bumper, just in front of the fender. WTF? #Lucky

So I keep driving into the night and pull off in Kansas somewhere. By mid-day on Day 2 I hit 'Floyd Hill" and start my ascent into the Rocky Mtns. Ah yes, good to be back home in the mountains and on familiar terrain. To my delight, I rounded the big onramp onto I-70 right behind what appeared to be a tuned WRX with poop shooter exhaust and stickers all over it. I jumped in right behind him for the big hill climb up toward Genessee. Dude appeared to be givin' er, then we stumbled upon a stock looking 911 and we all start givin it. I basically sat behind the other two in the fast lane, waiting for traffic to open up, yawning :zzz: . Then a few lanes open up and I swiftly shift across 3 lanes and back over and am gone instantly. Happy days in the new car!!!

Then the car starts to hiccup at the top of the hill and my nightmarish 2 days of 4foxsnakes begins...
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:44 pm

So I limp the car into Idaho Springs. I was just sure the car was running too rich at altitude. What else could have been so perfectly and coincidently paired to the quick climb up to 8600ft after cruising on the highway for 700 miles?

The car's final landing place just behind the library in the tiny town of Idaho Spgs. After walking back and forth across town (1 mile each way) (no less than 7x) to the local, price-gouging autoparts store, I settled upon the conclusion that;..

1). I did indeed have (weak) spark,
2). Had a battery that was basically toast (I assumed this attributed to the weak spark),
3). Didn't have a single tool except for the $67 small case of cheap sockets and the $11 adjustable crescent wrench that I bought from said autoparts store
4). Got really sore walking back and forth with a 60lb car battery to charge. My strength coach would've been proud at my kettlebell "farmers walk."
5). I wish I had a laptop with me.


So after begging and pleading for the library to let me borrow a laptop, I was informed that each laptop had a tracking device that would sound an alarm, call the police, and just flat out shut the thing down if I walked out the doors. However, the incredibly nice librarian did me a solid and told me she could drive home and get her own personal laptop and drive back in for me to tune the car. I cannot tell you how gracious and thankful I am to have been helped by so many people during the first few "dark" days of ownership. Thank you Dace, Kieth, nice librarian lady, Apikol, duder at the laundromat who gave me a ride to the hotel that first night, and Mr Chaloux for the 24hr tech support.

Ok back on track. I changed all the settings and installed the new vemstune that Matt had sent to me. Still no start and another dead battery. So the next day I get another charge on the battery and stoked to have Dace go out of his way to drive down from Winter Park. We try and try into the night but the damn car just won't start. Plugs continued being fouled over and over again, in spite of all the changes we made to the tune.
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:00 pm

One randomly annoying thing after the next. Then we decide to go to the pub and start drinking.

Day 3 stuck in Idaho Spgs. I wake up and decide its time to admit defeat and call for a tow. My insurance won't pay to tow it 200 miles home because there's a perfectly good Audi dealership in Denver only 50 miles away. Sweet, and not really helpful.

That was the first phone call of the day. Then something happens and I lose cell phone coverage. So does the rest of the I-70 corridor from Georgetown to Denver. Apparently they decided to service a major powerline or tower and the ENTIRE town of Idaho Springs lost connectivity. Every business immediately went to cash-only sales. There wasn't a single internet signal, landline or cellular device that was operational anywhere in town. Then I found a coffee shop that was apparently the only wifi signal anywhere within 30 miles and the entire town converged upon it. I gained the ability to text but no phone calls or even skype. :bangshead: Not really helpful while waiting for a tow truck driver to call me back to set up the tow. Good grief, at this point I started to believe that the Audi was a bad omen. Remind me again why I like old cars? I've been on a roll for the last 6 months of old-car ownership...

Luckily I was able to call upon my new friend Dace to not only coordinate the tow but coordinate a shop other than the stealership to tow the vehicle to. Tow truck finally shows up and its such a relief. Then this happened. No shite. The tow truck's 4 wheel locking brake system decides not to release. Not only that but the truck has a coolant leak. I could not be making this up, for reals. Really?
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:24 pm

So late in the day we finally arrive at our destination. Enter Apikol. These guys are amazing. I'd heard of them and have even ordered parts from these guys but somehow had no idea that they were in Boulder. If you need service done on your car and you're in the Rocky Mtn region, check these guys out. Troy and Doug are awesome dudes and are genuinely interested in YOUR problems. As soon as I walked in I felt at home. Little did I know, Doug and I are acquaintances from way back in the days when he was racing mtb's. Cool. That's my peeps.

So after troubleshooting the car for about 3 minutes and finding that I'd gone from a weak-spark situation to no-spark, we (Troy) discovered that the 034 trigger wheel was now completely detached from the pulley. Ok, now it was all starting to make sense.. Apparently the miniscule .00000000001mm bolts had somehow managed to shear off :nuts: . 034 has never heard of this happening but on a positive note, they ARE now for some reason producing a "Now Improved" version of their product that has never failed.

I believe the wheel started coming loose, as evidenced by the groove worn into the CPS sensor. Anyway, didn't have much choice but to have Troy work his magic and re-attach/weld the wheel to the shitty potmetal surface of the crankpulley with absolutely no guarantee of how long it'll hold. Well, it held long enough to get me home and may well hold up for the rest of time? I'm investigating a better solution until that time comes.
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby pilihp2 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:54 pm

Wow. :o
That's a rough start to new to you car! Glad you made it home finally! Hah!
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:06 pm

Ok moving right along. I got home without a hitch, massive thanks to all the kind people that helped me do so. You guys are awesome, the community is so great.

I got home from the hellacious return home and drove the car for about a week. Even before the launch control novelty had worn off, I had the car on the lift and torn apart. I couldn't help it. The car was scary without real brakes. Upon returning home I started compiling the list of parts necessary to not only install the 993 BBK onto the 4000, but do the 5 lug conversion outlined in several places on this forum. I sourced a pair of URS4 uprights, Audi 200 (auto) front hubs, new wheel bearings, 5 bolt hubs, 19mm ball joints, MK2 tie rods, 4000 rear axles, etc, etc...

Unfortunately, the shop that was pressing the new wheel bearings/hubs into the housings, messed up and pressed the old 4 bolt hubs back in. In the process, the brand new wheel bearings were obviously ruined while being pressed back out. They made it right and ordered a new set of wheel bearings for me but this set me back another week.

So here are a few pics of the progress. I chopped the URS uprights and cleaned them up a bit. Once housing was just nasty with corrosion so I cleaned it up with the wire brush wheel and my media blaster, then primered and rattle canned it black. It'll do for now. I also found that I had to work the inside of the URS housings with a brake cyclinder hone to get the 4000 uppers sleeved down far enough to be at the right ride height. I clocked the steering arms in about 1/4" from stock location and will slug weld them as done by those before me. I really wanted to retain the coilovers that the car had and also use the BBK that I got from Chaloux. So far so good but I haven't received the new wheel bearings so the project is on hold for a few days.
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:16 pm

Then I decided, while the car is down, to do something about the horrendously, hideously, gawd-awful color of the rattled-canned intake manifold and VC. I just couldn't look at it anymore. No offense Matt, I know that's what you had in the garage. Run what ya brung and all that.

So I pulled the fuel rail, VC and Intake mani and have them off at my buddy's shop for powdercoat. That'll make me (and 4FoxSnakes) feel much better about ourselves. :D
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby Mcstiff » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:16 pm

Glad you made it here! Wish I could have run up the hill that first day; not sure I would have noticed the trigger wheel any quicker!
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby chaloux » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:29 pm

Oh man, what a shitshow to relive. Glad you're here now though! And welcome :)

I lol'd a few times reading, especially about your strength coach and the god-awful paint in the engine bay, hahaha.

Just make sure you get new copper crush washers for the fuel rail banjo bolts, I have had to put new ones in every time I take it off. And those suckers have to be tight.

Also, damn it looks clean under that valve cover!
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES

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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby AngryTaco » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:38 pm

rossschnell wrote: 034 has never heard of this happening but on a positive note, they ARE now for some reason producing a "Now Improved" version of their product that has never failed.




:we:


On a good note, welcome to the forum
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby UrSobsessed » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:14 am

Welcome Ross! Glad to see you got home safe and are moving forward with the car!
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby audifreakjim » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:27 pm

Apikol rules. Put in the main seal trigger wheel efiexpress offers
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby loxxrider » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:01 pm

Nice! Glad to see progress is being made. Good story too!
-Chris

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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:05 pm

Thanks guys. I'm very excited about the new toy.

Loxxrider- are you the man to talk to about bigger injectors? I have E85 locally and am considering going this route. Thoughts?
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby loxxrider » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:20 pm

Yes I am indeed. E85 is awesome, but it requires proper care, especially on a car which is not run often. Because of it's corrosive and hygroscopic properties, it is not good to leave in the fuel system for long periods of time.

The best approach is to run regular gasoline through the fuel system just prior to shutting the car down. That will help keep the injectors and all other fuel system components operating properly. In a race car application or on a car which only gets used a few times per year, the even better solution is to spray the injectors out with WD40 and store them in a sealed bag when not being used for long periods of time. This is essential to keeping them operating properly. Aaron (speedingG60) was just telling me about his ID2200 (or whatever the flow rate is) which are frozen solid because of this.

My idea for this on my car is to have a small auxiliary fuel cell so I can switch over to gasoline just before shutting the car down. That way you don't have to worry about running the E85 out of your tank and putting gasoline in when you're not using the car for a week or two at a time. You still have to worry about what's going on in the tank, but that's a different issue altogether.

ANYWAY yes, I would like to see this car running the 1200s. They are really great injectors that are robust and have impeccable idle qualities, and handle E85 well. They were built specifically for a motorsports application by Bosch and so are built solid. PM if you're interested.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:40 pm

Yeah ok. Sounds like a minor pita to deal with E85 but I imagine the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. If nothing else, I wanted to go E85 as that's the best (safest) fuel for boost. We only have 91 octane in Colorado so I assumed E85 would be my best bet.

I owned a diesel rabbit with a Greasecar kit, similar setup to what you're advising. I had to start and stop it on diesel fuel and then could flip the solenoid over to run veggie after the car was warmed up.
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby chaloux » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:56 pm

I mentioned this in conversation but just so you have it here in writing - limit power to 400whp on e85 or you risk grenading 2nd gear in the 016. That will yield you a super safe tune at somewhere around 27-30psi that you can beat the crap out of the car on the track with. You could do a 35+psi tune just for the numbers/bragging rights, but the tranny won't last long at 450whp+
Matt

18 Silverado 1500 work pig, roof rack and tonneau cover
11 Jetta sedan TDI DSG, rear muffler delete
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:00 pm

I remember you saying that. More than anything, I want a super safe tune and 27-30psi sounds fabulous. I kinda think I'll be happy with 400whp. At least for a little while..
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:02 pm

If budget allows, I'd like to do an 01E 6sp swap this winter. That's also sorta on my mind. :D
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES - end of an era

Postby rossschnell » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:18 pm

The 323x30mm A8 rotors I initially ordered had the wrong offset (rotor height) and were not even close to being right. I measured the distance from the center of the hub to the outer limit of the 993 caliper and also found that I needed a 312mm rotor. I did some searching and found these Zimmerman Sport, c-drilled rotors with a 46mm rotor height as opposed to 60mm on the initial A8 rotor that I sourced. They just showed up today so I'll head to the garage tomorrow and check the fitment. I'm going to assume these are a go. I hope.
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Re: 4 FOX SNAKES -

Postby rossschnell » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:32 pm

Plus the Zimmerman Sport rotors are 4lbs lighter, bonus. It'll help offset the weight of the Ronal R28's I'm hoping to use. These weigh 28lbs each, ouch! The SSR's on my E30 M3 weight 17lbs. The 4000 also has +100hp advantage over the M3 though so I guess its acceptable
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