George's ABZ'd B4 90

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George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:00 am

Back with another 90...

I knew VW was going to be buying back my sportwagen for a while now, so a few months ago I began searching CL for a temporary replacement. After a few weeks I stumbled across a '94 Pearl White 90. Looked clean enough, but the seller was distant and I had no interior pics. I took his word for it and drove from Buffalo, NY to just outside Washington DC. This is what I came home with.

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Drove great and got 30 MPG on way home :nuts:

Torn up axle, bad sway bar end links, warped rotors, poor alignment and sloppy suspension were the main issues.

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Junkyard score:

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Turning rotors and cuttings springs.... :foff:

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H&R springs with some used dampers up front.

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I've since raised the back a bit with new springs.

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Last edited by lorge1989 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

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Re: George's ABZ'd B4

Postby lorge1989 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:22 am

I drove it with the V6 for while. Ran pretty good, but very slow and drank quite a bit of oil.

My friend had an ABZ laying around, so I impulsively bought it and a wiring harness. After I got that stuff I realized how slim the flywheel options were. Ended up with the TTV flywheel, which cost more than the motor and harness combined..... But at least I have many clutch options.

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At this point the harness is out and I have started tracing wires. In any other swap I had the complete pinout of each connector that plugged into the fuse box. For example on the ABZ harness we have:

-4 ECU connectors (don't need the pinout)
-Trans connector (also don't care about)
-Green
-Black
-Blue
-Yellow
-Brown
-[4] Black fuse holders
-Red connector (with relay attached)

I would really love to know the pinout on each... I have a few documents on this stuff but I can't pin point each wire. I am going to start tracing each one through the harness, and hopefully document it.

Image

As far as the V6 harness goes, there is not much to it at all. The fuse box diagram plus a few others I found is going to give me most of my answers. Still hoping to find some documentation on what is going into this connector though.

Image

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1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4

Postby the german » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:33 pm

PM me your email address and I'll send you the ABZ wiring diagrams
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4

Postby PRY4SNO » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:48 pm

Nice score on the junkyard springs/struts! Bilstein/Vogtland?
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4

Postby Grillage » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:40 pm

This isn't a total pinout, but It shows what most of the ABZ harness that you'll need actually does. It's my ABZ to VEMS spreadsheet I did for my cq swap.
Attachments
V8 to VEMS Wiring.pdf
(169.25 KiB) Downloaded 83 times
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4

Postby Grillage » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:43 pm

Also, this is what you need for the B4:
http://12v.org/urs/audi_90_electrical_w ... s_1993.pdf

That black connector at least on the Coupe was most (if not all) of what I needed to integrate the ABZ harness with.
It's called "T10" in the book
CURRENT
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4

Postby lorge1989 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:25 am

the german wrote:PM me your email address and I'll send you the ABZ wiring diagrams


Done, thank you!

PRY4SNO wrote:Nice score on the junkyard springs/struts! Bilstein/Vogtland?


Yep, off of a B5. I think I got charged $40 total. :)

Grillage wrote:This isn't a total pinout, but It shows what most of the ABZ harness that you'll need actually does. It's my ABZ to VEMS spreadsheet I did for my cq swap.


Grillage wrote:Also, this is what you need for the B4:
http://12v.org/urs/audi_90_electrical_w ... s_1993.pdf

That black connector at least on the Coupe was most (if not all) of what I needed to integrate the ABZ harness with.
It's called "T10" in the book


Thanks for the continued help.


-----------------------------


Went and made a table of every wire/connector that I have to deal with on the relay panel side of the ABZ harness. I still have a lot of blank spots, but I'm working through it. I am confident I have enough to get the engine running. Once I doucment all that, I will post up.

Next thing I wanted to look into was the flywheel/clutch/trans.

The TTV flywheel and engine dimensions can be seen ROUGHLY in the drawing below. Engine left, flywheel right.

Image

Not sure how much sense that makes, but the 43mm is basically the hub the flywheel gets centered on, and there is a 35mm ID bore in the crankshaft where the bushing was pressed in for the automatic flex plate to center on. I have pulled that out, because it interferes with the flywheel.

The flywheel has a stepped bore, of 43mm then down to 35mm. The pilot bearing that most 01A cars use is 24mm in the OD and 15mm ID (needle bearing).

I contacted TTV and they suggest the pilot bearing goes into the crank, if I do that, I will need a long adapter to make the pilot bearing stick out enough to engage the input shaft of the transmission.

My original thought before contacting them, was to machine the auto bushing I pulled out already to press into the 35mm bore on the flywheel, retaining the shoulder on the backside. I would also bore out the bushing to 24mm so the regualar pilot bearing can be pressed in. I have a good idea where the bearing needs to sit but I figured I can control engagment just by making sure my fit is tight enough. Therefore I can just push the bearing in/out as needed until I have perfect engagement.

Anyone see a downside to having the bearing in the flywheel as I described? If there is such thing as a needle bearing that will fit the 01A input shaft and has a 35mm OD that would be great as well.

Quck sketch of what I mean, the new bushing is green. The internal bore is 24mm press for the pilot bearing.

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------------------------------------------------

One last thing. This is the backside of the engine, bare.

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The V8 had two metal rings, one below the flex and one above it. I assume I dont use either of these? I can't use the one that goes on top for obvious reasons, and the one that goes below make it so there is no where for the flywheel to center to. The only solution for this would be to make up a pilot bearing adapter that sits in the crank, and also doubles as the centering feature for the flwheel.

Without the spacer the flywheel seems to have good starter engagement, but I think either way, with/without it the starter will engage fine. The spacer is only about 2-3mm thick.

With spacer:

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A quick measurement shows me that with the crank sensor location in the transmission I probably do not want to run the spacer, as the hole seems about centered on the 60-2 feature on the flywheel.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4

Postby Grillage » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:59 am

034 used to make a bushing for the V8 flywheel - Here's one pictured on my v8 coupe:
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It is basically the same as the automatic one you took out except 14mm deeper:
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Note I did NOT use the spacer that is in the pic. I found it pushed the starter ring and flywheel pin out too far on my flywheel.

Too far out:
Image
Corrected:
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The 034 bushing was just a little bit too deep for my fidanza flywheel too so I ended up shaving it down a few mm:
Image
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4

Postby ChrisAudi80 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:57 pm

Grillage wrote:Also, this is what you need for the B4:
http://12v.org/urs/audi_90_electrical_w ... s_1993.pdf

That black connector at least on the Coupe was most (if not all) of what I needed to integrate the ABZ harness with.
It's called "T10" in the book


GOLD!!! :D
96 S6 auto
95 80Q AEB VEMS
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4

Postby lorge1989 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:25 pm

Grillage wrote:034 used to make a bushing for the V8 flywheel - Here's one pictured on my v8 coupe:

It is basically the same as the automatic one you took out except 14mm deeper:

Note I did NOT use the spacer that is in the pic. I found it pushed the starter ring and flywheel pin out too far on my flywheel.

Too far out:

Corrected:

The 034 bushing was just a little bit too deep for my fidanza flywheel too so I ended up shaving it down a few mm:


Cool, I am comfortable not using the spacer. Also I went with the pilot bearing in the flywheel instead of the crank, just because I think it will be easier to get to if it ever needs to be replaced.

On lunch today at work I took the auto bushing, because it had a perfect, slightly oversized 35mm bore that fit my flywheel. Turned down the larger end just so it slipped through the 43mm bore on the flywheel and cut both ends shorter so it didn't interfere with the shoulder on the flywheel mounting flange on the engine and also so the bushing sat flush with the outer surface of the flywheel. Lastly, bored out the small hole in the middle to just under 24mm so the B4/5 V6 closed end pilot bearing would fit perfectly.

Lot of words, but I'll get some pictures in here so you can see what I'm saying.

The part nearly done:

Image

I'm going to test fit the trans and engine and somehow measure how far the input shaft pokes through before I install the pilot bearing. Judging by my crude measurements it looks like the bearing mounted flush will be good!
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 273
Joined: Feb 2, 2014
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:12 am

Here is the flywheel installed.

Image

Does anybody know the difference between the newer V8 crank sensor and the older 32V one? Are they compatible at all? I know physically they fit in the transmission hole but other than that I am not sure.

I also need to locate some flanges for the downpipes, or a set of downpipes....
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 273
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Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby Grillage » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:43 am

The ABZ has a sensor for the 60-2 ring - not a crank pin like the older ABH/PT would have.
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:32 pm

Grillage wrote:The ABZ has a sensor for the 60-2 ring - not a crank pin like the older ABH/PT would have.


I was thinking more along the lines of the 40v V8. Also will a 30v V6 starter work with the ABZ? I'm finding some wierd info.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby the german » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:25 pm

I recall just using the stock starter that came with the ABZ (A8). I got you message and am sending you a link to download it now.
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:39 am

the german wrote:I recall just using the stock starter that came with the ABZ (A8). I got you message and am sending you a link to download it now.


After more digging it seems any port injected 4.2 V8 starter will work, just have to find one. I think a local yard might have the downpipes and starter I need.

Anyone have a picture of the ABZ crank sensor? I am 100% sure the OD is the same to fit in the transmission as the newer 40V but I'm wondering if its just a length difference. I had a friend measure one up for me (the 40v one).

~22mm long probe that sticks into the transmission
~18mm on the OD

His is also a 3-pin. I'm willing to bet its the same sensor, there is one letter different in the part number.

For the 3.7 and the 4.2 in the 1997 to 1999 A8, I'm getting 077905381E.

For the C5 4.2 A6 I am getting, 077905381F. This part fits a whole bunch of other 4.2 cars as well.

I don't mean to keep bumping this for no reason, just trying to collect all the information. :)
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 273
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby PRY4SNO » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:02 am

The -E and -F denotes a revision. Historically newer PNs will supersede old ones and are backwards compatible, EG using bolt-thru knock sensors from a v6 on a 7A. If the length is good I'd run it, but perhaps someone with more v8 experience can chime in.
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:14 am

PRY4SNO wrote:The -E and -F denotes a revision. Historically newer PNs will supersede old ones and are backwards compatible, EG using bolt-thru knock sensors from a v6 on a 7A. If the length is good I'd run it, but perhaps someone with more v8 experience can chime in.


:thumbsup: This is pretty much what I am hearing!

So I picked up a crank sensor and a starter yesterday, the clutch also came in. Flywheel/clutch are installed!

Image

I attempted to bolt the trans and engine together last night but to my dismay, the subframe is totally in the way. I cut a bit off the bottom of the engine and messed with the subframe a bit, but it just won't line up. My next step is to really cut up the subframe and re-weld some plate, giving me the clearance I need.

Still working on the passenger side set up. I would like to run oil cooler-less for now, but I do not think thats the best idea I've ever had. :D
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 273
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby Grillage » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:05 am

Have you read through my thread? I had the same problem and show the shaved oil pan that solved it. See page 1

Image
Image
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:10 am

Grillage wrote:Have you read through my thread? I had the same problem and show the shaved oil pan that solved it. See page 1


I must have missed that. You took at ton off of it! I already banged up my subrame pretty good, so I am going to modify that, if needed I can cut some more material off of the engine.
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby the german » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:00 pm

I had this issue as well and used spacers between the engine bracket and mount to solve it. There are pictures in my thread as well. Made for a simple and effective solution.
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
the german
 
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby the german » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:05 pm

Here is a picture of the Delrin bushings I made for spacers.

Image
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
the german
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Feb 15, 2014
Location: Bellevue, WA

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:30 am

Back at it after an eventful weekend.

I couldnt find downpipes for the right price and also I would have had to hack them up to get them under the axles. So I decided to use v-bands and make my own.

Image

The 2.25 inch ones from summit slip right into the flange with no cutting needed.

I decided not to cut the entire bottom of the v8 out to fit in the car and over the subframe. Instead I knocked the subframe and re-welded some plate in, making the subframe much shorter.

I also built some motor mounts.

Image

Image

The end result was this.

Image

I would like to go to H20 with this, so this week should be a good one.


Anyone have an ABZ MAF they want to sell? I figured for everyone who went VEMS someone has to have one!
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 273
Joined: Feb 2, 2014
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby Grillage » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:36 am

I think I do. Let me check tonight. I know I have an airbox and I think the MAF is connected to it still

Also - Nice work!
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby Grillage » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:22 pm

I do have one. I'll PM you
CURRENT
1995 90 Quattro
1994 Cabriolet - 5 speed
1986 Maserati Biturbo Spyder
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Re: George's ABZ'd B4 90

Postby lorge1989 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:00 am

Grillage wrote:I do have one. I'll PM you


You are the man! PM'd back.

Last night I got the fuel system hooked up and also located my dual oil filter setup. Its sitting right in front of the passenger front wheel.

Next step, put the harness on, connect up power/ground and see what happens. I don't think I need any inputs from the car to start/run considering I have the main relay and most of the fuses that came out of the A8. The big test will to be if this car has an immobilizer or not and how it will run with an un-tuned ECU. I do have the immo bypass board and a chip to be soldered in, just haven't got the chance to do either.

My goal is to be driving this thing by Monday morning. :D
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
lorge1989
 
Posts: 273
Joined: Feb 2, 2014
Location: Buffalo, NY

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