Chris' 200 20v Sedan - The Revver

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Chris' 200 20v Sedan - The Revver

Postby loxxrider » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:16 pm

This is the project thread for my beloved 200 20v. I want to say that it started out very innocently, but I'd be lying. I bought this car because I couldn't get traction with FWD or RWD cars and thought building something AWD would be more appropriate. I started out by saying that a 30r would be fun on the small side, and a 42r might be a little too big to be fun. Well, that eventually all went out the window.

Anyway, I bought the car in the summer of 2008 with a little less than 150k miles on it. It was a peach of a car, literally nothing wrong with it other than the steering rack leaking. I can remember driving it home while my dad followed in my "big" turbo jetta. The thing felt like an absolute boat in comparison, but I could also feel the power being transferred to the rear wheels, and that felt right :)

I brought it home and commenced with phase 1.


Phase 1...fun on stock turbo

I'll see how much I can explain in pics. This is when I first got her home. Almost no mods yet except for ripping out the stock airbox and throwing in a catch can since my crank vent hoses were royally effed.

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started the audio install (clarion Hx-d10, PG ti and ta amps, high end PG subs, door components, etc.)

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did some light interior work (lots of suede)

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fabricated a nice downpipe and wastegate dump for extra gangster status

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pieced together a nice VEMS engine management setup

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picked up new wheels

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but fitting the wheels was way off into the future because I needed adapters to fit the wheels, and also these cars use a very unique front brake setup that doesn't allow for anything normal to fit up front in terms of the wheel hub size. Sooooo in order to fit the wheels, I needed to convert to Porsche brakes with Audi S8 rotors, custom brackets, braided ss lines, etc...and to fit the brakes, I needed the bigger wheels which required me to buy adapters. So long story short, I spent a lot of money just to fit these damn wheels.

While waiting for adapters, I picked up some sweet toys. (s372 is not mine)

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for size reference, this is/was the one in the middle

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this is it while being refurbished

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tore apart the dash area to make sure that each and every light and switch worked properly

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put her all back together...yummm (still more work to do here)

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picked up a spare long block to build up (now the block is sold, still have two spare heads)

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brackets (on cad) and new calipers

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blew some flames

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Finally got everything together to put the wheels and brakes on

you can see the caliper peeking out here

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stock height fitment

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rear
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front was flush with fender

oh and I finally got a real exhaust because the sidepipe made for no clearance whatsoever...3" straight back from the turbo with vband into random ass muffler. Sounds awesome tho.

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Then I decided those stock tails were not cuttin it, so my neighbor airbrushed them candy apple red.

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Then my roommate and I started getting serious. Here we have two sets of bilstein sport struts and shocks (BMW E30 and Audi 200 20v), eibach coil springs (200), H&R race springs (E30), A1 racing coilover parts, and Omaha steaks...

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semi-finished product of the suspension setup

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and for the fronts I had to make my own rings for the sleeves to sit on (strut housings)

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when all was said and done, we ended up with this

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I would have tried to go lower but my downpipe pretty much hits the ground at that point. Here is as low as its ever gone thus far...this is with the coils all the way down unfortunately.
Last edited by loxxrider on Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby loxxrider » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:17 pm

Part 2, Holset H1C time

So part one was big brakes, suspension, standalone (VEMS), and a little interior work... all good foundation for a bigger turbo. Part two is about fitting that bigger turbo (Holset H1C/HX35) and optimizing it on the current setup.


This little passage is from the day we installed the turbo

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I never really test fit the IC. I just made a mock one out of some cardboard and held it up to the car and said, "This should work." Well it worked...but barely. I'll have to get more pics of the clearance later on. For one thing its a tight squeeze to the pulleys, but the worst part is its width. When we were done it cleared by about a centimeter. One thing I knew would have to get cut out was this support thingy here...

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After that was finally all figured out, we had to decide how to route the IC piping. I always envisioned the piping in my head the way we eventually did it. Our reasoning was because when I go with a custom tubular manifold and bigger turbo it will be over by the fender more. IC piping over there wouldn't work for the future so well over there. The way it is now, its fairly flexible for future upgrades.

Next was cutting the IC piping and debating whether to use the Hargetts or not. We decided not to use them yet because everything will probably change a bit when I get the intake manifold and also because I need to get some tight 3" aluminum 90's to replace the silicone ones we used (for lack of a better option at the time). That was one thing I didn't foresee.

Tacked the pipes up with the terribly functioning TIG and called it a night.

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Next day we started out by getting the downpipe welded up. I need to put another v-band in it because right now I can't get it out of the car without having it on a lift. That will be for next time though. We did so many things right. Got it absolutely perfect as far as fitment is concerned. The downpipe used to hang a little low thanks to the first guy who made it for me. We chopped it up to accommodate the Holset and in the process sucked it up at least a few inches. My ground clearance has increased dramatically now. I'm super happy about that.

Notice the spark right next to my fuel filter!

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and then we were finally able to use a friend's welder and got the IC pipes all buttoned up. They aren't the prettiest welds, but the penetration is perfect and they are strong ones. Next time we are going to grind them down and do some nice, pretty welds on it and fit the Hargetts.

Finally we had to mess a lot with the damned drain line because it required a 45 on the block to avoid hitting the alternator. We got it all sorted out though.

Like I said, I also moved the coils to the driver's side and changed up a few other things, but here is the finished product for the most part!

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We then started it up (actually started it previous to getting the top pipe finished to check for leaks and it sounded awesome) and it was perfect. Different sound than the stock turbo for sure. Not sure how to describe it though. We then tuned the car for as low boost as possible and called it done.


and now the car has been tuned up to 21psi on FIC 1100cc (using industry standard testing ;) ) injectors. Thats really about it up to this point in summary.

Here are some videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eygjE4vpeg4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQHZw_dWm1I


**This next part didn't really end up happening**
Phase two is not over. I am getting rods soon and doing a small rebuild on my current block. It will be quick and dirty until next year when I do step 3 :)

To complete phase two, I hope to have an 01E tranny this summer, pull the motor and do rods, turn the boost up really high on race gas, and see what she makes. Also gonna put my new intake manifold on. Pics when I get it :)

Here is a little taste of what phase 3 is going to bring to the table:

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Last edited by loxxrider on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Posts: 6642
Joined: Feb 27, 2013
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby loxxrider » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:17 pm

Phase 3: Insanity

I had a lot of fun on phase 2.

Went to Carlisle, PA for the weekend for a big oldschool Audi get-together.

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Nick and I (another badass 200) partaking in some shenanigans

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got a Euro-only steering wheel from a euro urS4 or RS2

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Tried some lambo wheels out

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bailed on that idea lol

But lets get back into phase three...

So... I did end up pulling my engine and trans out that summer, but I ran out of time and my parents were moving so I had to get it wrapped back up before receiving a trans or installing rods. When I got it back in with new engine mounts, my downpipe didn't fit anymore because it was previously fabbed when my old mounts were all old and saggy. That was what really sparked the madness. I called Hank up who had just made me a nice intake manifold and told him about my situation. I don't even think Hank had to put the idea in my head... I had a spare huge turbo sitting around (Holset HX52) and thought it would be a good time to fit that with a tubular manifold and nice new downpipe/wastegate. A deal was made, and I got it all back together with that stuff installed.

Here is the intake manifold Hank made for me:

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and here it is fitted with the old turbo shortly after which I decided I needed to put the HX52 on

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the decision was officially made and I got this stuff in the mail:

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I cannot wait to clean this car up once I have more time and a better place to do it!

and the vids (my mom is awesome lol)





After this, the car sat for almost a year while I finished up school. The next summer, I had it all plumbed back up and drove it for a few days :)

The IC piping was completed with no silicone which makes the system that much more robust. I'm using two Hargett couplers (no longer made :'( ) and three Vibrant Vanjens couplers. I like them both a lot.

What you can't see is the 4" downpipe and transition to my old 3" exhaust which was done in stainless.

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There are a few kinks to work out. The shift linkage keeps popping off, so I need a new bushing for that, I need a new brake light switch because mine stopped working after doing the vacuum brake conversion. In the following two videos you can hear something funky with the shift linkage and the brake booster vac line pops off. Also, there is no wastegate on the car yet (it'll be here today) so it just hits boost cut all the time lol. I haven't been in the pedal more than about 50% at 20 psi and 5k RPM, but it sure is quick even like that.



Last edited by loxxrider on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
User avatar
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Posts: 6642
Joined: Feb 27, 2013
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby loxxrider » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:45 pm

Part 3 continued!

After that was all finished up, I was off to Saudi Arabia for work. That meant I had to have someone work on the car for me while I was (and continue to be) away. Marc Swanson at EFIexpress has always been super helpful to me and expressed interest in taking on the challenge of building this monster I had in mind, so I shipped the car to NH.

The goals were laid out plainly. 800 awhp minimum and 11k RPM rev limit. That would require dry sump, solid lifters, and just about everything else you can imagine. This is where we are today. A few pictures (I don't have too many yet, but there will be more as we go!) of the progress:

We bought a NASCAR Tilton triple disk clutch, a tall-deck block or two for building/mock-up, some nice engine internals from Iroz Motorsport, some dry sump parts from Aviaid and from random other places in Europe, etc., and an M5 for a daily driver... (doh!)


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Most recently, we ordered a ds tank and modified the crank cog to interface with the dry sump cog.

before:

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after:

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dry sump tank ordered

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We also modified the strut housings (1.5" shorter) on the car so it can go lower while retaining suspension travel and had the struts shortened and re-valved correspondingly. No pics of this, sorry :/ I'm told it goes low though :idunno:

As a few final notes, I have figured out that the HX52 and Pro52 turbos I was planning to use before were not going to flow enough at 11k RPM and 800+ hp, so I'll be going for a Borg Warner S476 now. Fuel pump will likely be a big Weldon, just trying to finalize the details on that. Fuel injectors will be 2150s at a minimum, and the damper will be provided by Fluidampr. These have all been slight sticking points lately, but I think we've got them all figured out now. Lots of stuff will be trunk-mounted including electric ps pump, dry sump tank, fuel surge tank, etc. That is all for now! I will update as I usually do when things move along :drive:
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby 85oceanic » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:39 pm

Freakin-A Chris. I Hope I get to see this thing in person someday. Such an awesome build. Your car makes mine look like a complete pansy in the Engine department, luckily I have something in the works. :)
-Ben-
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-1985 Audi 4kq: Xona 7164 AAN 488whp- -2009 Audi A4 -
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby EDIGREG » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:57 am

Epic project thread migration COMPLETE :thumbsup: :beer:
Ed
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby loxxrider » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:14 am

Looks like the MG community is mad at me for moving this here. Oh well! Revolutions don't just start themselves :foff: :beer:
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
User avatar
loxxrider
 
Posts: 6642
Joined: Feb 27, 2013
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby Hank » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:34 am

I keep waiting for the lazy way to import my stuff.
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby 85oceanic » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:47 am

loxxrider wrote:Looks like the MG community is mad at me for moving this here. Oh well! Revolutions don't just start themselves :foff: :beer:


Man! You weren't kidding! :rofl:
-Ben-
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby Mcstiff » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:41 pm

loxxrider wrote:Looks like the MG community is mad at me for moving this here. Oh well! Revolutions don't just start themselves :foff: :beer:

Lol, don't you know nobody who knows anything comes here? :wah:
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby Hank » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:56 pm

:metoo:

Traffic goes where Projects and Knowledge go. Already 3 days in, this forum has atleast 50-60% of the kick butt projects going on currently on the geek. As long as project threads are not double posted on both locations, I anticipate a lot of people coming over chasing good fabrication, good work and fresh ideas. If double posting happens, people have no motivation to leave.

I started the forum to post my own projects as to keep a healthy relationship with 034 by not breaking their rules. Apparently people liked the idea too.

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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby Marc » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:26 pm

the tank looks better in person :)

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very aggressive baffling as well

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Marc Swanson
Proprietor, EFI Express

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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby EDIGREG » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:28 pm

awesome. mounting it in the trunk or somewhere closer?
Ed
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby loxxrider » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:22 pm

Giggity! That loos looks nice. I do believe it is going in the trunk. Marc, you really need to learn about focusing cameras... You have a d90, put it to good use lol
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
User avatar
loxxrider
 
Posts: 6642
Joined: Feb 27, 2013
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby 85oceanic » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:33 pm

:drool:
-Ben-
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-1985 Audi 4kq: Xona 7164 AAN 488whp- -2009 Audi A4 -
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby speeding-g60 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:41 pm

i was wondering what the fuck was up with "dramarider".

first post goes to this thread BTW. and now i have to scroll back to see what dry sump tank that is. and size.

EDIT: found it.

and FWIW, i am getting rid of my Fluidampers. not a viable solution for high rpm use, they actually do worse up there. i am going to run a BPY (FSI) factory one. i read a LOT about it, and that is the conclusion i came to, as well in chats with a good friend who is pretty damned smart.
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby amd is the best » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:45 pm

EDIGREG wrote:awesome. mounting it in the trunk or somewhere closer?


Do people actually mount them in the trunk? That seems WAY further away then I'd want it.
Nick

'00 A4 1.8t
'91 200 20v
'91 200 20v Avant
http://www.youtube.com/amdisthebest
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby amd is the best » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:48 pm

speeding-g60 wrote:i was wondering what the fuck was up with "dramarider".

first post goes to this thread BTW. and now i have to scroll back to see what dry sump tank that is. and size.

EDIT: found it.

and FWIW, i am getting rid of my Fluidampers. not a viable solution for high rpm use, they actually do worse up there. i am going to run a BPY (FSI) factory one. i read a LOT about it, and that is the conclusion i came to, as well in chats with a good friend who is pretty damned smart.


I may be 100% incorrect but I vaugely recall that you need a specific damper for running at speeds like you do in the 1/4. Is that not true?

Good info on the FSI stuff though. Might have to steal my Golf's for the 200.
Nick

'00 A4 1.8t
'91 200 20v
'91 200 20v Avant
http://www.youtube.com/amdisthebest
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby FRCFD5 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:57 pm

very nice!
1992 Audi //S4, VEMS, GT3071R, RS2 Getriebe....



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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby EDIGREG » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:18 pm

amd is the best wrote:
EDIGREG wrote:awesome. mounting it in the trunk or somewhere closer?


Do people actually mount them in the trunk? That seems WAY further away then I'd want it.


Yeah, many have the tank in the trunk, including the s1/a2/etc I believe. Also many with it closer to the motor like the caterham, or in the cabin in race cars. Makes no difference besides the length of the lines (and slightly increased capacity)
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby amd is the best » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:23 pm

EDIGREG wrote:
amd is the best wrote:
EDIGREG wrote:awesome. mounting it in the trunk or somewhere closer?


Do people actually mount them in the trunk? That seems WAY further away then I'd want it.


Yeah, many have the tank in the trunk, including the s1/a2/etc I believe. Also many with it closer to the motor like the caterham, or in the cabin in race cars. Makes no difference besides the length of the lines (and slightly increased capacity)


Good to know. I know very little about dry sump oiling.
Nick

'00 A4 1.8t
'91 200 20v
'91 200 20v Avant
http://www.youtube.com/amdisthebest
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby speeding-g60 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:28 pm

amd is the best wrote:I may be 100% incorrect but I vaugely recall that you need a specific damper for running at speeds like you do in the 1/4. Is that not true?

Good info on the FSI stuff though. Might have to steal my Golf's for the 200.


you are 100% correct. technically supposed to.

and FYI, the BPY/FSI damper you will need the crank gear also. the reason i am switching is that it is held on to the crank gear with 6 bolts, not 4. 50% more clamping force. they DO make the Fluidamper for that model, but i will try and not run it first.

my theory is that if they dont make it for the car, then i may get away with it. although i didnt notice problems in the past using it, i have since broadened my horizons and learned some more stuff.

and it seems that dramarider here :twisted: already knows about the Fluidamper not being good for a revver motor.
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby amd is the best » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:30 pm

speeding-g60 wrote:
amd is the best wrote:I may be 100% incorrect but I vaugely recall that you need a specific damper for running at speeds like you do in the 1/4. Is that not true?

Good info on the FSI stuff though. Might have to steal my Golf's for the 200.


you are 100% correct. technically supposed to.

and FYI, the BPY/FSI damper you will need the crank gear also. the reason i am switching is that it is held on to the crank gear with 6 bolts, not 4. 50% more clamping force. they DO make the Fluidamper for that model, but i will try and not run it first.

my theory is that if they dont make it for the car, then i may get away with it. although i didnt notice problems in the past using it, i have since broadened my horizons and learned some more stuff.

and it seems that dramarider here :twisted: already knows about the Fluidamper not being good for a revver motor.


Great info! Ty :thumbsup:
Nick

'00 A4 1.8t
'91 200 20v
'91 200 20v Avant
http://www.youtube.com/amdisthebest
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Re: Chris' 200 20v Revver Project

Postby loxxrider » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:38 pm

haha I guess I made some people pretty mad because they changed my title and took down all my pics.

Aaron, I am wary about running the Fluidampr, but ATI doesn't want to help me with one either, so... I don't really know what to do. Also, what are your specific concerns with the fluidampr at high RPM? I talked to the engineer and sales rep (sales rep doesn't help, but he was the middle-man for the engineer) and they assured me that it would be no problem and that they test their dampers to 13k for over an hour...
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Posts: 6642
Joined: Feb 27, 2013
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