1PissedOff90

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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Mcstiff » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:17 am

the german wrote:BTW- if this was one of your inspirations, what else is on that list? I'm always on the lookout for more inspirational reading material....


I take things away from most everyone's build, sometimes from things that they try which I don't like ;) But the big ones, off the top of my head, would be: Jimmy's 90 (Like this 90, Jim's project continues to be an inspiring build), The Iroz urQs, Javad's 80, Nate's V80, Marc's V8TT, Sean's urQ, the S-Line CQ (ex. Zzak's & Sean's), Dave's S2++, Da Fridge, Hap's Monstah, Chris' 20020v, Aaron's CQs, TerryBullwon's CQ (s2Forum), Tom Saltino's RS2, Nick's QUAT44RO, Sam's Sedan turned CQ, Darin's Projects, Da Crow, and some other's I'm likely forgetting :D

Chances are you've seen most of those, this car likely slipped under your radar because it was only posted about on Audiworld / Quattroworld and Mance never liked to leave his pictures up because of issues with people ripping off his work. KAWF makes it hard to discover and follow a thread unless you see the original post. :beer: :beer:
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby alxdgr8 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:14 am

Interesting that it has an 016 and not 01A/01E.
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby B. Rock » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:03 am

Exciting stuff, provided you can pry it from the wife's hands! So does this make 12 rings in the driveway between your cq, ths 90, and the cq you are re-rehabilitating?

Also, would you be interested in a high rear bias 016 at some point?
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby the german » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:30 am

Mcstiff wrote:
the german wrote:BTW- if this was one of your inspirations, what else is on that list? I'm always on the lookout for more inspirational reading material....


I take things away from most everyone's build, sometimes from things that they try which I don't like ;) But the big ones, off the top of my head, would be: Jimmy's 90 (Like this 90, Jim's project continues to be an inspiring build), The Iroz urQs, Javad's 80, Nate's V80, Marc's V8TT, Sean's urQ, the S-Line CQ (ex. Zzak's & Sean's), Dave's S2++, Da Fridge, Hap's Monstah, Chris' 20020v, Aaron's CQs, TerryBullwon's CQ (s2Forum), Tom Saltino's RS2, Nick's QUAT44RO, Sam's Sedan turned CQ, Darin's Projects, Da Crow, and some other's I'm likely forgetting :D

Chances are you've seen most of those, this car likely slipped under your radar because it was only posted about on Audiworld / Quattroworld and Mance never liked to leave his pictures up because of issues with people ripping off his work. KAWF makes it hard to discover and follow a thread unless you see the original post. :beer: :beer:



thanks, I do know most of those haha! I spend zero time on QW though which explains why I never saw this one. Too bad the pictures are gone now.
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Mcstiff » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:47 am

B. Rock wrote:Exciting stuff, provided you can pry it from the wife's hands! So does this make 12 rings in the driveway between your cq, ths 90, and the cq you are re-rehabilitating?

Also, would you be interested in a high rear bias 016 at some point?


Yeah, 12 right now; I need to clear out space for 8 in the garage ;-) Wife and daughter want to take it shopping today lol!

Regarding the 016 (in the S-Line right?), I'll have to think about it. If my longterm goal is to go 07k, the 016s do nothing for me. Currently, I don't like the idea of ditching the nice CVs, axles, shifter, and trans that is in it but more power and less weight is good.

alxdgr8 wrote:Interesting that it has an 016 and not 01A/01E.


So, he went with it for the locking center diff, specific gear ratios, and lighter than the 01E (IIRC). It seems that it is not exactly a stock 016; I'll have to get confirmation when I am able to talk to Mance.

To quote http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2111007

...not a "real" AudiSport but an '84 016 with 1st-4th gears custom-made/hardened to AudiSport ultra-close ratio gearbox specs and an 073:1 5th gear so its not so buzzy at highway speeds. But a 1st gear thats good to about 45MPH@7k/51MPH@8k.


And http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2113798

In addition to gaining some much more desirable gear ratios, center locking and 4:11 S4 final drive in this conversion I also picked up some dramatic rotational mass weight reductions.

90Q dual mass flywheel: 34.9lbs.
200TQ cast iron single mass flywheel: 17lbs lightened to 12lbs

Stock 90Q CF 2pc driveshaft and CVs: 29.70lbs
Lightweight/motorsport Driveshaft/CVs: 15.14lbs

Total rotational mass weight-loss achieved from flywheel to final drive during 016 tranny conversion: 37.46lbs

Far better gearing with a 37.5lb rotational mass weight reduction is no small/subtle achievement on any car, let alone a dual purpose one. When added to the additional 36lbs of rotational mass I'll lose with the new engine this car should be VERY quick to rev and decelerate when revving freely or under load. The 11.25:1 compression should resemble Jake Brakes when decelerating in gear.

Hopefully today I can finish up under the car by installing the drive shaft and finish welding the right side tranny mount and get it installed. Both tranny mounts were designed/fabricated to allow it to be 1/2" lower. I've turned 1/2" spacers to shim it back up til the engine conversion when I can machine motor mounts to allow the engine to drop a corresponding 1/2" for lower center of gravity.

Today I should be able to start my "least favorite" aspect of this whole conversion, ie; adapting the shifter linkage to work in the 90Q while also appearing 100% stock. Besides the Bilzcat stainless short shifter I have to use bits/pieces from a 96/97 A4QM, my 90QM, an 00/01 S4QM and of course the 4kQM. As is my nature on mods like this I saved the worst for last.
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby B. Rock » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:04 pm

Yes, from the s-line. I have a similarly modified 01E in the garage that needs to go to make some space. No rush at this point, just putting it out there.
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Mcstiff » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:23 pm

Not to beat a dead horse but it's good to document these bits in a central location. Thought I didn't get some of the stuff (build bottom end, Haltech (I cant find it), CF hood, front Ohlins), this really exemplifies why I had to have this thing: http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/18322.phtml

I don't think very many here truly understands or can come to terms with the time and costs involved in building a car like Ms Laura at this level of development and from from top-to-bottom-left-to-right-front-to-rear. It's a STAGGERING/mind boggling undertaking! Just keeping track of the weight of EVERY part and/or fastener assembly, no matter how large/small and regardless if pounds, ounces or grams that goes on/off the car is recorded so I don't lose track of where I am and where I'm going with front/rear/left/right weight bias. And I'm not above/beyond drilling out even M6 bolts to compensate or make up for a few added grams nearby. This is my swan song. The last car I'll ever build. There is nothing too small, too tedious, too insignificant, too time consuming, too anally-retentive or too obsessive-compulsive to go after. And I have nothing but the time to do it.

Just the 6ALV forged Titanium rods in the above pic will set you back between $1,500/$2000 EACH! The Uber lightweight 11.3:1 CR Mahle box-n-box pistons carry a $5k setup charge for a custom forging PLUS the cost of the pistons. They're forged in South America, machined in Austria then shipped state-side for final compression ratio finishing and ring lands. And you can plan on between 6 months and a year from the time everything is paid for until you have the parts in your hand. In my case rods took a little over 6 months and pistons took over a year as I had to take a back seat to Mahle's FIA and Nascar development committments.

But the rewards are vast! Each rod/piston assembly (less pins) now weighs 635 grams. The OEM setup is 1,018 grams per assembly. And while that approaches near 40% less weight it doesnt really sink in until you realize the engine has to turn 680.5 less pounds of rotational mass per minute at idle or 6,752 less rotational pounds per minute at 8k which is 112lbs less rotational mass per second! Rotational mass that now contributes to moving the car rather than just spinning the engine. And that's "just" pistons/rods!

And EVERYTHING is lighter, ie; gun drilled crank/cams, hollow/sodium-filled over-sized valves with 5mm under-sized stems that are under-cut to 4mm, lightweight hydraulic and solid lifters for different cam sets/profiles, Ti retainers, lightweight damper, flywheel, driveshaft/driveline and ALL CV's except for front outers. Gun-drilled axles at all 4 corners. Many titanium or 7075 aluminum (poor man's titanium) suspension parts, ie; strut bar, tie rods etc. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm well over $60k out-of-pocket to-date and that's machining most of my own stuff in-house and doing most of my own work. And if you think $60k is a hard number to get to when building a car at this level you needn't look any further than the above picture to see almost 1/4 of that number just in this single picture if the other 5 pistons were included!

The Porsche GT3 Cup Car Ohlins suspension I have to go in the front of the car was almost $8k right outta the box! And they will go into more 6ALV Titanium front struts that I haven't lifted a finger on yet but have the titanium tube/plate stock pre-purchased (another $1,800) to do them but don't want to start on until the engine is out of the car as strut tower modification is inevitable.
Last edited by Mcstiff on Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby PRY4SNO » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:30 pm

jaw=dropped
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby pilihp2 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:46 pm

Reading the original story in that thread is a serious treat too.
I love the amount of work that went into this thing. even if it is a 12v. I'd much prefer a 20v, but honestly the 12v is almost cooler because I can guarantee you'll never see that modified of a 12v anywhere else.
Or a 12v with that much money dumped into it.
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby dbldmnd » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:36 am

Very cool Ed, I'll look for it at the C&C this summer.
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Mcstiff » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:39 pm

dbldmnd wrote:Very cool Ed, I'll look for it at the C&C this summer.


I plan on attending next week, hopefully it does not snow again 8-)
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Grillage » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:54 am

I'm happy to see this thing documented. I was a little late to the game getting my first 12v in 2010. The audiworld 12v forum has a pretty amazing amount of knowledge from mance and others trying to get every ounce of horsepower out of these engines. It was always super annoying that the pics were gone so I'm happy to see the images too.
Has this engine been dyno'd?
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby B. Rock » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:14 am

With that kind of work/effort into the engine...can you really get rid of it for an 07k?
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby alxdgr8 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:55 am

This going to be at BBQ2014?
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Mcstiff » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:09 pm

Grillage wrote:I'm happy to see this thing documented. I was a little late to the game getting my first 12v in 2010. The audiworld 12v forum has a pretty amazing amount of knowledge from mance and others trying to get every ounce of horsepower out of these engines. It was always super annoying that the pics were gone so I'm happy to see the images too.
Has this engine been dyno'd?


Yeah, I hope to get more to share from Mance and I’ll work to consolidate info here and maybe on 12v.org. AFAIK, this configuration was never measured on the dyno. He reported that the “…last dyno on OEM engine management was ~144 at the wheels with only 3" intake, bored throttle body & MAF housing and I'm confident I've got AT LEAST 35-45 more today even being ultra-conservative. Perhaps even as much as 215-225WHP but "at least" 35-45 more than last dyno which would place me at ~180-190WHP today. My guess is cams alone added just at/over 30HP! Additionally evey inboard and driveshaft CV has been lightened/honed. Lighter flywheel, 9 lb one-piece driveshaft, lightened/balanced harmonic damper, alternator pully ad infinitum..”

I believe the “today” in 2009 is more or less what the car has today in 2014.

B. Rock wrote:With that kind of work/effort into the engine...can you really get rid of it for an 07k?


It is an interesting question and similar to the discussion about the 07k’s stock head flowing equally to a worked AAN head. If you have a worked AAN head is it worth going 07k? In that case, it depends, but we do know that Mance was building a bottom end and had considered trying to fit an LS6 in the quest for more power. It is unlikely that I’ll replicate the built bottom end that he was working on and he determined that the LS6 would not fit so those are dead ends. Now, I could look into an Audi V8 but I’d have to do a bunch of thinking before making that call.

The concerns I have about putting an 07K in this car (aside from cost) are having to ditch the 016 (which potentially means replacing the lightened from axles, modifying/replacing the Ti shift linkage, and modifying/replacing the single piece center driveshaft with lightened CVs) and adding the complexity/decreasing reliability of a turbo. Now, I love turbocharging but we’ll have to see how I feel after logging some time on the track. I don’t know what a full 12v weights, I’ve seen 355#s listed on 12v.org but not sure if that is with manifolds and accessories. My engine should be slightly lighter from all the porting etc. Hank posted the 07k with accessories as 349# so not a large delta but something to consider along with the weight of the FMIC and lines. It is most likely very close, aside from shifting the weight slightly forward again.

alxdgr8 wrote:This going to be at BBQ2014?


That is currently my plan, hopefully my family and work schedule accommodates!
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby pilihp2 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:22 pm

I'm getting conflicting info on 016's working on 07k's.

So which is it? Ack.
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby vt10vt » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:55 pm

pilihp2 wrote:I'm getting conflicting info on 016's working on 07k's.

So which is it? Ack.

Image

I would love to know a definitive answer to this...
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Mcstiff » Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:18 pm

Unless the 07k experts have discovered something new, the last I had heard was "no". The other issue is blowing up the 016 :D
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby audifreakjim » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:33 pm

No kidding, 18 psi 07k=dead 016
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby PRA4WX » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:47 am

As is the case as of late, i'm late to the congratulations party. Congrats! Buying this car with all the SOLID work already done to it is like finding a pocket full of change in a car you just bought.......you know it wasn't included in the purchase price......and you ALMOST feel guilty when you buy Twinkies with said change......almost. 8-)
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Mcstiff » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:26 pm

Yeah, I paid more than market for a clean lowish milage Sport 90 Quattro so not quite free but way way way less than it would cost to replicate. Driving it for the past weeks I'm still happy, cornering speed is high and I'm sure I'm the main drag on it's max; that said another 100 or so whp would be welcome for the straights and stoplights. I'm not sure how that will eventually happen, SEM and a PES G2 blower would likely be the easiest path to ~300whp and would retain the majority of the Mance-ness (ex Intake). Of course, the devil on my shoulder (Iroz) says that the 07k is about the same weight at the AAH and #/whp will far outweigh that of a 12v with a blower (something like 1:1 vs 0.7:1) but that will be more of a project and further out in the future.

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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby UrSobsessed » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:17 pm

WOW! Nice score Ed! It's been a long time since Mance posted up about Laura(IIRC, that was the cars name under his ownership). That car has been SO anally attended to. It should be an excellent car for a LONG time. Congratulations!
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Mcstiff » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:35 pm

Thanks! It (yes, Laura is the given name) is in great shape but, as with anything, I have a short list of to dos. Nothing too major (CV boot probably the most labor).
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby ringbearer » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:27 am

CV boot!

Oh no, that grease he was running was silly expensive.
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Re: 1PissedOff90

Postby Mcstiff » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:21 am

Yeah, I think Redline was mentioned.
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