Basic 07K Facts?

Transplanting the new VW 5cylinder

Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Noisy Cricket » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:18 pm

I'd like to start a thread for those of us who aren't in the know about some of the basic facts surrounding these engines.

True/false?

Bore centers the same as the old four/five/etc. VWAG engines? Deck height same?

Almost as short as a four-cylinder thanks to the chain placement (closer to four than five length, anyway)?

Crank sensor is a 60-n wheel?

Bellhousing pattern. Same as the four, or is it a mix between four and five?

What about rod journal, would 16v or 20v rods work?

Flywheel bolt pattern - would a solid flywheel from an earlier application fit? The DSG cars have a flexplate, the manual transmission models probably dual-mass, right?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby PRA4WX » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:40 pm

I like this. A knowledge tree for the 07K.

83mm as big as is realistic?

Any history or stock rod strength?

Rod ratio?

VVT intake only, right?

These blocks 1000hp capable like the older stuff? How about the forged cranks?

Stock oil pumps handle 8000, 8500rpm or...?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby glibobbo21 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:48 am

intake ports are same center to center(not sure on bores)
3-1/4`" shorter than AAN
crank sensor is 60-2 near rear seal
bell housing is similar to 5/6/8 pattern with some bell housing missing
rods, not sure. IE has them
FW pattern is 4 cylesque 6 bolt. requires a custom fw or a 1.8t fw and custom starter. the custom fw requires starter mods. ask hank for deatails on that.

engine needs to be bored .5 so 83.5

stock oil pumps and roller rockers should be good to 8 at least

VVT is intake only, if its ends up like the 1.8t's the VVT will do nothing for power(only make it worse) and is all for emissions. time will tell

I dont think anyone is running around with a longitudnal new 2.5. One has been started but still some details to be hashed out. I can pull ahead in the "race when the EM and dp are done. :-D
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Noisy Cricket » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:32 pm

My concerns are more of general what-if-ness, not any specifics.

I'm not much of a fan of turbos on "fun-cars" so if I ever play with an 07K (they're cheaper than 1.8 8v/16v in junkyards so maybe) then it will be nonturbo. But before you can plan, you have to gather information, and I can't be the only one looking for info :wave:
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'84 RX-7 (bridge ported, fuel injected, way modified dirt buggy)
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Hank » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:27 pm

Okay, this is a great idea.

220mm deck heights, 88mm between bores, 82.5mm bores, with the same overall block height as the AAN based engine

92.8 stroke with 144mm rods

Intake ports are the same between centers, but the exhausts are equally spaced 88mm apart unlike the aan

Rods are 144mm rods, though they are slightly thinner than AAN rods. I HAVE THEM TOO for both stock pistons(or FSI pistons) or aftermarket(non tapered)

Oil pumps have proven fine to 8500 without any issues. 9500 has shown cavitation in racing situations

VVT is not like hte 1.8t, it is fully functional VVT. Furthermore, it is pretty strait forward to retrofit tt RS exhaust components into the NA 07k to have VVt on the exhaust cam as well if you have the engine management to support the PW control

Flywheel is the same bolt pattern as 1.8t 6 bolt stuff. One can use 1.8t flywheel and clutch from longitude cars, but you will be stuck with 1.8t disks at 220mm. I have a 240mm 14 lb flywheel made that accepts 7a clutch kits and 1.8t pilot bearings at 340$, so it is not unreasonable.

This motor is 4 cylinder weight with nearly 6 cylinder displacement. The motor is so light the new KTM X-bow GT will get it...

Perhaps a cheap "ghetto" turbo build would be FSI pistons on my custom rods to have a 550whp capable motor much like an AAN on rods. They are 82.5mm as well.
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Hank » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:28 pm

Yes, 60-2 trigger pickup using hall sensing
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby El Guapo » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:16 pm

I would guess that the ECS flywheel that lets you run the S4 clutch would fit as well. 240mm vs. 228 I used one in my A4.
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-Qua ... l/ES12084/

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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Hank » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:24 pm

Yes, that would work with a spacer on the starter to space out the ring gear, or this would work as well if you wanted to use the 7a clutch kit instead of the B5 s4 kit

http://www.irozmotorsport.com/07k-2-5l-flywheel-for-01e-transmissions/

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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby glibobbo21 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:43 pm

its nicer in person. :-D
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby PRA4WX » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:12 pm

Hank wrote:Yes, that would work with a spacer on the starter to space out the ring gear, or this would work as well if you wanted to use the 7a clutch kit instead of the B5 s4 kit

http://www.irozmotorsport.com/07k-2-5l-flywheel-for-01e-transmissions/

Image


So which/what starter does your flywheel work with, Hank?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Hank » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:34 am

None, I am modifying regualr 5 cylinder starters to work with an adapter ring.

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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby pete82 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:51 pm

has anyone got one up and running yet in a quattro?

or is it just stuff like rabbits etc with them fitted?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby my2000apb » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:21 am

pete82 wrote:has anyone got one up and running yet in a quattro?

or is it just stuff like rabbits etc with them fitted?


http://www.theprojectpad.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=56

its very very close to running
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby PRY4SNO » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:50 pm

Found this write-up on eurotuner's website... pretty good read.

http://www.eurotuner.com/techarticles/e ... ewall.html
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Mcstiff » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:54 pm

Just going to put these here:

Image

Hank wrote:Static flow numbers are only part of the equation. You are getting a fabulous reading at various amounts of lift on the valve, but the story of how long it is at those lifts is not completely told. With a roller rocker cam, you can ramp up and ramp down at extremely steeper angles. This amounts to about 25-30% more flow when you are not playing "keep the cam on the bucket" routine with a bucket over valve design.

You can see this with the cams below

Image

The left is 07k and the right is 7a. Now remember, the 07k is a ratio'ed rocker arm, so height of lobe can't be really considered, but what is interesting is the ramp up angle and the duration on the cam. It basically paints the picture of why a roller rocker is the bee's knees.

On a side note, pistons are shipping out as we speak!

Hank


...

Hank wrote:LOL

Well done.

You can get 07k flow out of an older AAN based, it just turns into a six thousand dollar head before you realize what happened to you :) Right Nick? 6 thousand dollars can buy a lot of adapter parts, lots of labor and lots of spare 500$ 07k's when tuning doesn't go as planned :)

Hank


...

Hank wrote:To match the flow of an 07k with all things considered, you would likely have a 30-40 hour port job@ 80-100$/HR by somebody professional like Jeff on a bench
1200$ CATs
300$ valve springs
250$ Ti Retainers
400$ in valves
75 in decking
250 in adjustable cam gear
50 hot tank
Core(7a modified to turbo spec, around 400$, AAN in useable shape, around 450$)

If you get ambitious with the cams and have to have solids to match the 9300rpm rev potential of the 07k, you are talking another 500$ in solid lifters and several hours of shimming, along with the 750$ Ferrea Valve Springs required to get over 13.5mm worth of lift instead of the 300$ supertech ones.

Heads add up VERY quickly, which is the reason the 07k is such a cool idea. Basically all that cost above on ebay for 200 BIN, but about 1800$ worth of adapters/pans/flywheel and another 2000 in manifolds.


...

Mcstiff wrote:And the 07k still has headroom for better cams, valves, and porting; of course that doubles your investment but if you put 4k into a urI5 head what's next?

I have a spreadsheet comparing the cost of an AAN with Rods (stock head) and an 07K build; the 07K is more money but part of that is because I have this AAN longblock that I can't seem to give away :lol:


...

mushasho wrote:that's really only further skewed by the fact that the 07k also requires pistons, something not added on your AAN build...


...

Hank wrote:All things aside, the real benefit comes if the unthinkable happens. Drop a valve on a 700whp I5, you are out 7-10 grand. Do it on a built 07k, you are out 2-3 grand.



:drunk:
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby PRA4WX » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:57 am

I hate this stuff. Every time i had myself talked into sticking with the tall deck in the garage, something like this gets posted.
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Mcstiff » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:28 am

PRA4WX wrote:I hate this stuff. Every time i had myself talked into sticking with the tall deck in the garage, something like this gets posted.


Dude, I feel the same way about my AAN but I also recall Hank's urQ with the urI5 (fairly stock ex.rods) and over 500whp. I'm tempted to run it at 1/3 of the cost of an 07K (just to get the longblock mounted with manifolds) but at the same time I know that it will be just as difficult to sell as a longblock with rods, for the cost of parts, as is is today as a shortblock :idunno:
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby chaloux » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:20 am

PRA4WX wrote:I hate this stuff. Every time i had myself talked into sticking with the tall deck in the garage, something like this gets posted.


Whichever you go with, it will be beast. Remember that stroker you've got is the unicorn 92.8mm crank. I debated over and over putting that engine on some sort of layaway plan with dad but I decided that would get me into too much trouble. If you have that crank lightened/balanced (along with the rest of the rotating assembly) it will rev like stink and be essentially bulletproof. Yeah it's a bit heavier and older than the 07k but it's still going to make a shitload of power and spool fast as a 2.5l. So if you want you can eventually get head work done.

Just wait till you see Chris and Nick's numbers on their "old shitty engines"as nick put it :)
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Zerb » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:35 am

Anyone happen to have a coolant flow diagram for the 07k motor? Perhaps in a Bentley if anyone has one.


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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Wheeljack » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:16 pm

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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Zerb » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:46 pm

i did read that. i wasnt sure if that stood true for the 2.5L non FSI motors as well, thanks
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Hank » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:18 pm

Yep, same cooling diagram.

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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Zerb » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:52 pm

so, just to share here, i made a diagram of my proposed cooling setup in my audi with this motor. pretty simple for most of us im sure...i just like a less cluttered diagram. only thing i guess some here may do is have a coolant overflow bottle. i have an overflow off the top of the radiator cap, which is the highest part in the system.
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby ur20v » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:46 pm

Forgive my ignorance, but... How do you get around the direct injection? Threaded plug? Second spark plug?
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Re: Basic 07K Facts?

Postby Mcstiff » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:42 pm

ur20v wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but... How do you get around the direct injection? Threaded plug? Second spark plug?


With the VW port injection engine. It does not seem like direct injection is a huge limitation (see 034 or APR's TT-RS dynos); it would be interesting to go dual injection (if you really needed it).
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