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T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:02 pm
by loxxrider
Hey guys, I'm getting serious about designing a new strut mount for our cars to give us the best of ALL worlds. There should be no sacrifice in adjustability or suspension travel as in other designs. BUT I NEED YOUR HELP!

I wanted to make a clean thread where we can talk about design of a new mount only. Once it's finished and prototyped, we can talk other stuff... like price. This probably wont be a cheap solution, but it will be uncompromising. I will probably have Ed's design made too for those who want a different option. We'll have to see how they compare when I'm done, but let's keep this thread focused on this design.

Just so there is something remotely visually appealing here, here's a picture of part of the current assembly (without lower plate showing). I have a LONG way to go with this, but it's better than nothing. Just started this design from scratch a few days ago. I'll go into more details on the concept in a bit.

Strut Mount Progress.JPG
Strut Mount Progress.JPG (39.52 KiB) Viewed 10962 times



Here's what I need help with for both UrS and T44:

- Measure the angle between the stock strut tower (or the lower plate that sits just under the tower top) and the strut shaft. I measured 9.5 or 10 degrees, but that was years ago...

- What is stock camber?

-How much camber and castor adjustment do you want to be able to have?

- What are the rough dimensions of the opening in the strut tower (to optimize adjustment capability)?

-The distance between the top of the strut tower and the strut's lower pivot point (to determine delta strut angle vs lateral movement of the top mount).

-If possible, the clearance from the top of the strut mount plate (the one which mounts just under the strut tower top) to the hood from various points (near to outside of car, near to inside of car, middle, etc.)

-If anyone has one of the Bicknell Racing red top hats around, I'd love to make a model of that because they're better for this design than the A1 racing ones. I will see if I have one laying around somewhere, but it's going to take me a while to get to one if I have it.

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:11 pm
by mushasho
Got an address bud?

Image

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:28 pm
by loxxrider
Oh yeah!! That's what's up. I'll definitely take those off your hands if you don't plan on using them. I'll pm you.

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:30 pm
by mushasho
loxxrider wrote:Oh yeah!! That's what's up. I'll definitely take those off your hands if you don't plan on using them. I'll pm you.


Oh, I'm using them alright... how long before you can make a mold?...

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:52 pm
by loxxrider
It just depends how much time I get. Honestly I might as well just order one because I'll probably use them for my avant anyway.

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:38 pm
by loxxrider
So noone wants to take any measurements? The software I use costs me about $300 a month to use, so I'd like to get good use out of it this month!

I'd like to know the OD of the bilstein gland nut and the ID of both A1 and Bicknell racing top hats. Someone halp!

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:24 pm
by mushasho
I'll measure for you tonight... with pics... :-)

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:28 pm
by EDIGREG
mushasho wrote:I'll measure for you tonight... with pics... :-)


LOL keep that personal stuff off the forum :rofl:

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:55 pm
by loxxrider
:lol: :rofl:

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:26 am
by 20VAvant
Image
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Chris,
Maybe this model will help? I modeled my Bicknell Top Hat and Bilstein shock body.
The assembly would come with the stock mounting plate too and a *rough* model of the opening in my car....

These are the top mounts I made last summer. Still holding up but stock plate needs to be trimmed and they have no castor adjust and I could go from roughly +0.5 to -3.5 camber if I remember correctly...

Image

This would also give you the plate angle that I believe we talked about previously...

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:06 pm
by loxxrider
Oh hell yeah, thanks!

Hook it up :)

I'm not 100% sure what you modeled that in, but I should be able to import all the files. Maybe not the assembly though. This will help tremendously. I bet there would be some people happy to try your design out too if it was made an option. Basically the same as stock but with a spherical bearing. Nice and simple.

Do you have any idea how much clearance you have from the top of the strut to the hood?

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:08 pm
by 20VAvant
loxxrider wrote:Oh hell yeah, thanks!

Hook it up :)

I'm not 100% sure what you modeled that in, but I should be able to import all the files. Maybe not the assembly though. This will help tremendously. I bet there would be some people happy to try your design out too if it was made an option. Basically the same as stock but with a spherical bearing. Nice and simple.

Do you have any idea how much clearance you have from the top of the strut to the hood?

I drew it up in solidworks, I'll send it over tomorrow!
I'll also measure the clearance and report on that as well.

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:44 pm
by loxxrider
You da man!

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:44 am
by loxxrider
I've made some progress with my "proof" of concept, AKA virtually determining if my idea will fit within the constraints we have to work with. So now you can see a little bit of the concept I have going here. The design is driven by the need for adjustability in any direction, suspension travel, and the space we have to work with.

I am pretty close to being able to determine how much travel can be gained from this, how much adjustment it will provide, and probably of equal importance, how to clamp it all together. Thoughts on clamping include a threaded retainer to go around the OD of the big bearing housing, or bolts. The bolts pose an issue with adjustability however. The threaded collar idea is just going to be expensive! But that's all next on the list.

This picture shows the mount set up for pure caster adjustment.
Strut Mount Progress 4.JPG
Strut Mount Progress 4.JPG (28.36 KiB) Viewed 10750 times


Strut Mount Progress 3.JPG
Strut Mount Progress 3.JPG (63.52 KiB) Viewed 10750 times


Strut Mount Progress 2.JPG
Strut Mount Progress 2.JPG (32.29 KiB) Viewed 10750 times


The lower plate will be able to rotate in the strut tower while the bearing housing slides in the lower plate.

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:14 pm
by loxxrider
Any news Nick? I am a bit stuck until I can get the last few dimensions I need.

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:15 am
by Aktapod
Stand by. If he doesn't get them to you, I've got some time I can take some measurements tomorrow.

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:21 am
by 20VAvant
Shoot! Sorry Chris!

I was busy putting the 200 back together this weekend and forgot about it. I've got free time tonight and I'll send them over as soon as I get home from work. Made an alarm on my phone to remind me!

My apologies!

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:17 pm
by 20VAvant
As promised,
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dnw34kdiixze ... qPOha?dl=0

Let me know if this doesn't work for you. My student copy of Solidworks ran out so I can't check the files to make sure they are right :/

Let me know if you need anything else!

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:12 pm
by loxxrider
20VAvant wrote:As promised,
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dnw34kdiixze ... qPOha?dl=0

Let me know if this doesn't work for you. My student copy of Solidworks ran out so I can't check the files to make sure they are right :/

Let me know if you need anything else!


Thanks! I'll try it out now.

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:17 pm
by loxxrider
I know you said the opening is rough, but how rough? Is it reasonably close to within a half inch or so? Just trying to figure out what I'm working with here in terms of movement.

Also, how accurate are the strut tower stud locations? (the outer set of studs/nuts)?

Also, is there some cant to the strut tower mounting in the castor direction too?

I got your assembly to work in Solid Edge ST7. This is the kind of utility that you pay the big bux for :)

Assembly Opened in SolidEdge Proof.JPG
Assembly Opened in SolidEdge Proof.JPG (35.39 KiB) Viewed 10645 times



This is how mine overlays yours. Adjustability should be similar or better (the little lip around the outside will go under the plate).
Overlay TOP.JPG
Overlay TOP.JPG (30.71 KiB) Viewed 10645 times

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:25 pm
by loxxrider
Looks like you measured 10 degrees in the camber direction to my 9.5. Close enough for me!

Also, I see that you don't have any cant in the castor direction.that was just my mistake when sloppily overlaying the parts for that picture.

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:20 pm
by loxxrider
Another question...

Are you sure about the ID of the Bicknell hat? I thought I remembered them being much thinner around the part which centers the spring (I.E. similar OD to the A1 hat, but bigger ID than the A1 hat resulting in a thinner profile there).


Also, I think I am remembering that with the Bicknell hats, the strut would bottom out on its own internals before the gland nut would interfere with the top hat. With the A1, the top hat would hit the gland nut before the strut would bottom out. The attached picture is helpful in understanding why.

You can see the interference in diameter, but also that the Bicknell hat is much shorter allowing the strut itself to bottom out first I believe. That is for an unmodified strut. I'm not sure what the shortened struts are like.

TopHatsVsGlandNut.JPG
TopHatsVsGlandNut.JPG (46.97 KiB) Viewed 10639 times

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:32 pm
by uberaudi
loxxrider wrote:Another question...

Are you sure about the ID of the Bicknell hat? I thought I remembered them being much thinner around the part which centers the spring (I.E. similar OD to the A1 hat, but bigger ID than the A1 hat resulting in a thinner profile there).


Also, I think I am remembering that with the Bicknell hats, the strut would bottom out on its own internals before the gland nut would interfere with the top hat. With the A1, the top hat would hit the gland nut before the strut would bottom out. The attached picture is helpful in understanding why.

You can see the interference in diameter, but also that the Bicknell hat is much shorter allowing the strut itself to bottom out first I believe. That is for an unmodified strut. I'm not sure what the shortened struts are like.

TopHatsVsGlandNut.JPG


Alright, with a set of calipers and a Bicknell hat in front of me, I measure a 2.071" for the ID of the hat, and a 2.432" for the OD of that same feature. I've also measured 10 degrees of tilt for the bearing housing FWIW.

This is a great thread as I've been tinkering with my own set of coilovers for a while now, and finally making some more progress, albeit slow. Any reason you're not designing this with a separate radial bearing to take some of the strain off the spherical? I'm using a double row tapered roller in my own custom top hat.

Anyone using OnShape yet? Basically cloudbased Solidworks...and it's free. Lots of other neat features (ie: group editing) as well and it keeps getting better. My Solidworks skillz are weak, and my assembly isn't finished, but I would definitely share what I have for those interested.

My coilovers should be operational by the end of the month!

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:40 am
by loxxrider
uberaudi wrote:
loxxrider wrote:Another question...

Are you sure about the ID of the Bicknell hat? I thought I remembered them being much thinner around the part which centers the spring (I.E. similar OD to the A1 hat, but bigger ID than the A1 hat resulting in a thinner profile there).


Also, I think I am remembering that with the Bicknell hats, the strut would bottom out on its own internals before the gland nut would interfere with the top hat. With the A1, the top hat would hit the gland nut before the strut would bottom out. The attached picture is helpful in understanding why.

You can see the interference in diameter, but also that the Bicknell hat is much shorter allowing the strut itself to bottom out first I believe. That is for an unmodified strut. I'm not sure what the shortened struts are like.

The attachment TopHatsVsGlandNut.JPG is no longer available


Alright, with a set of calipers and a Bicknell hat in front of me, I measure a 2.071" for the ID of the hat, and a 2.432" for the OD of that same feature. I've also measured 10 degrees of tilt for the bearing housing FWIW.

This is a great thread as I've been tinkering with my own set of coilovers for a while now, and finally making some more progress, albeit slow. Any reason you're not designing this with a separate radial bearing to take some of the strain off the spherical? I'm using a double row tapered roller in my own custom top hat.

Anyone using OnShape yet? Basically cloudbased Solidworks...and it's free. Lots of other neat features (ie: group editing) as well and it keeps getting better. My Solidworks skillz are weak, and my assembly isn't finished, but I would definitely share what I have for those interested.

My coilovers should be operational by the end of the month!


Thank you, your measurement matches Nick's part file.

I'm not sure what kind of bearing you're talking about, but I can almost guarantee you it's because it would affect adjustability or suspension travel. The spherical bearing I've chosen should easily be able to cope with the stress though, so not to worry. I'd love to see some pictures of what you've got in mind though.

I've tried many free or cheap CAD products, and none has been able to fulfill my needs reliably. Even the free offering from Autodesk (who make AutoCAD) sucks! It will be awesome when they're done with it, but I suspect it will not be free at that point either :idunno:


I made a lot of progress last night both in the design and analysis of how things will fit, etc. Things still aren't nailed down and I'm still not even sure if the concept really makes sense to carry on to production at this point without sacrificing something, but I'm going to keep going until I reach a dead end or find success :)

I need two measurements as soon as possible. What is the rough distance between where the strut mounts in the strut tower and where it can pivot down near the lower control arm area. This will help me determine how much angle we gain per linear movement at the strut tower top.

I also want to know how much room I have to go up still. AKA how much space between the top of the strut tower and the hood. :beer:

Pic for clicks...

dfsgsdfg.JPG
dfsgsdfg.JPG (62.64 KiB) Viewed 10618 times

Re: T44/URS Strut Mounts - Help Me Help You!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:16 am
by 20VAvant
Chris,

I'll try and get hood clearance tonight. I'm fighting a boost leak/acceleration stumble so I'm avoiding looking at the car as much as possible... :wah:

Glad you could get the files to work! I measured every plate with a set of calipers so they are accurate so stud locations should be good. The opening in the car was tricky and it's kind of a guess. My clearances worked though...