Aarons Drag CQ: 3-29 anodized and welded stuff. AN lines

WAUG0806 · Post by **WAUG0806** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:40 am

Everyone is going to have to be careful around that thing...

Wizard-of-OD · Post by **Wizard-of-OD** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:35 pm

:woowoo:

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:17 am

just to show i am not being lazy.

Wizard-of-OD · Post by **Wizard-of-OD** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:38 am

Do you need things to do?I got a list...

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:14 am

Wiz, if you only knew.....

last night i primered the hood white. and have had the parts for awhile now. got the hood for this swap when i got the car from Will.

i still have to pull the steering wheel and swap out the turn stalk cluster.... it is messing up some....

i finished wiring the center console gauges, for all the senders and lighting, etc. still gotta do the switches and their respective lights as well. that comes after i get the car wired though.

gotta put the front suspension on the Lago still.

gotta drop a fuel tank in that big blue truck, make it run again.

gotta get some more shit out of the garage, and over to storage.

gotta make a new manifold for the fishtank, and put the new big pump (have had it for almost 6 months now) on and plumb it all in.

gotta drop trans in rabbit and put in new one.

gotta wire in a WB02 in rabbit.

gotta put new seat harness in rabbit.

and we all can see how much work is yet left on this car.

zerb · Post by **zerb** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:59 pm

the lago looks sweet man, im even more excited now that i opted for clear fogs/turns for my rs2 replica front bumper :-D

repo · Post by **repo** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:40 pm

Hey, saw You posting on S2forum, decided to take a peek.

Nice looking project You have here.

If You think I can assist, pls. do not hesitate to ask.

Your intake is not going to hold long, I'm afraid.

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:53 pm

repo wrote:If You think I can assist, pls. do not hesitate to ask.

Your intake is not going to hold long, I'm afraid.

and why may i ask, will it not last long?? and thanks, BTW, for the props.

repo · Post by **repo** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:59 am

Large plane shapes never hold on intakes. Unless made of ½in plate.

Look at Jogi's experiences on S2forum, or Gnutz...

Have some anchors welded in the triangle at least. Like 10-12mm taps or internal vanes that divide the unsupported planes, and join the upper and lower faces together.

Mcstiff · Post by **Mcstiff** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:54 am

You could mount the TB pre intercooler and have the runners attached to the output side. ie make the intercooler your intake plenum.

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:43 am

i will look into that stuff repo.

and i did think about doing just that, Mcstiff.... for a long time. and i have seen instances where it has been done. but you still need a volume for the plenum after the IC core.

Mcstiff · Post by **Mcstiff** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:19 am

Just found this:

It is like if you cut the plenum down the middle and stuck a IC core into it.

I am sure that there is a pic of this in Maximum Boost.

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:41 pm

i have those pics and more....

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:38 am

aron,pls can u take a detail picture of this place?thanks

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:47 am

the race chassis is not here at the moment, but here is that picture request from my other coupe. and verified by other pictures that piece is still on the race car as well....

Post by **Hank** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:16 am

While it is true that the flat surfaces will yeild greater forces per square inch, the reasons that those manfolds are failing on the S2forums has to do with backfires, not 35psi of pressure. So the problem is more management then weld quality or design. That s2-golf has gone through a couple of manifolds, but that is because he was first running a second rail in the plenum when a backfire basically lit the A/F combination in a 4 liter container... Are we really surprised that the thing blew? Then to top that event, he has Nitrous that bascially does does the same thing. It would not have mattered if that manfold would have been round or square, as you are looking at +300psi pressures.

I believe that if you can keep your backfires in check, you can have flat surfaces like that. I pressure test all of my manifolds to 135psi.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:22 am

ok,because on the picture looks like the piece is not there and the holes are welded.I am thinking about it,to do that

repo · Post by **repo** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:49 am

Backfire is something to avoid, not for only intake point of view, but also otherwise.

I am sure Your intake can hold ton of pressure once, bur how about fatigue cracks after 10 hours of running? What about 30 hours?

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:22 am

i will be lucky to have 5 minutes total for boost pressure in a years time.... my cars are track only, drag only. and with anticipated 10 second runs (or less Audi gods willing) that is 10 seconds per run of pressure on manifold.

since i have two drag cars, they share my attention and both will get used thru out the year. which around me the season is only 7 months for the track.

but i appreciate your points, and have thought about doing something to strengthen the planes. maybe drill 3/16" hole thru in the middle, and weld a solid rod into it. like a column.

but i gotta say. they guy who welds my stuff, makes those aluminum tanker trucks among other things in a fab shop for a living. i would be surprised to see a weld fail from him.

Post by **Hank** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:26 pm

Aluminum in it's pure form does not fatigue or lose lateral or torsional strength. The contaminates(if any) are what will fatigue when mixed with aluminum. In fact the expansion cycles and the maximum heat required to break down 6000 series aluminum is more then any race motor or endurance motor will ever go through. Aluminum does not work harden. This is the reason that steel fails usually. It gets so brittle from being heat cycled or bent(even slightly in vibration situations) that it eventually snaps when a sheer force is applied. Basically, the sheer force of aluminum is what it is. You get what you get. Strength when welded is what it will be.
The fallacy of cast manifolds being stronger then properly welded billet material(6000s and up) is just that. It is a myth. Some crackerjack is welding manfolds in his garage without filler, with the wrong rod or without the proper heating cycles welding. I may be one of those guys, but I do know enough about casting processes and the sheer strength of welded materials vs cast materials to know that cast processes are far inferior. Whether it is cast pistons, cast A-arms, cast blocks, cast mounts....exc.. They are weaker then forged counterparts. 6061 is unique as a welded aluminum as it exibits virtually the same tensile strength before and after.
Those pictures of that golf build on the S2forums is a good example. The majority of the folks over there are sure that a cast unit is superior to a welded and most of that has to do with that golf's manifold coming unglued..

That guy is a great welder and fab guy.. but aluminum that thin in either cast or billet was not ment to see the pressures that the application saw.
That manifold or any of his others would have ran fine for a million miles at 40psi if it would have never exceeded 40psi. It is not the manifold's fault!! It is the injectors in the plenum mixed with the explsion event. That guy is cool becasue he makes no qualms about it. He knows what happens, and moved on like a good engineer. Kudos to him.

Now, the original statement was that flat surfaces are bad. This is correct and basic mathematics supports that. I am just saying that unless there is an explosion in the plenum, an intake manifold should be able to withstand the pressures of any turbo. It does not matter it the car is run for 10 seconds or 10 hours. Unless there is a tuning issue, you will never have problems with the mentioned manifold. I mean, lets face it.. You can build a manifold to withstand the these backfires but a manifold failing should be a red flag that something else needs to change. As you said, backfires are hard on a few things, and if not controlled, it could be the least of your worries.

Ams has two HUGE flatspots on their 1000+hp welded manifold on their Castrol Syntec manifold.... They are boosting the piss out of that motor to get 500hp per liter. I am sure they have the backfires in check.

Aaron, feel free to delete if I am getting your thread off topic!!

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:27 pm

its all good Hank. i like the technical aspect of "here" and it serves the future people.... whats the red car? is that Javads' machine?

fasterthenrs2 · Post by **fasterthenrs2** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:33 pm

That looks like URQ

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:40 pm

so, this is what the guy who welds my aluminum builds for a living. i think if his welds hold to the over-road trucking industry.....

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:52 pm

but who cares about that stuff.... i got some of my aluminum goodies from him today.... all kinds of fun.

got my catch can, and valve cover modded for breathing. i got my fuel cell, and my fuel rail mounted, too. and the AWIC ice box, but i have some work there yet.

i cant do all the lines until the car is back, so they are correct length etc. but i think you get the point.

here is a lil diagram of the internals of the can. i will not be putting any media inside (SS wool, etc) to start out. i really do not think its needed with my design. the tray is under the filters, so the fumes will coalesce there and drip back down to the bottom and drain back to oil pan via gravity. also, the tray is there to protect direct force on filters.... baffle really.

and then a couple of the valve cover itself. again, lines are not completed yet, this is just for the idea of my madness. and yes, i do think that this much breather will be helpful for what i plan.... the "TEE" onto the VC also goes down to the crankcase breather port on the oil filter housing.

this is just the big picture... the fuel cell, with some Bosch 044 lovin.... the intake. the catch can setup. the AWIC reservoir. still gotta make a mounting brackets for the fuel cell. and i forgot the lid for it at his place. will get it later. this is just an overall shot of some custom goodies. he still has alot of welding to do for me yet.... oil pan drains, AWIC res ports, radiator overflow, radiator (maybe), block/head coolant port fittings (flanges made by Issam), just a few things.

speeding-g60 · Post by **speeding-g60** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:56 pm

i forgot to say, i do let him "Tag" all the stuff he makes for me, kinda help him out and get him side-work you know.... exposure, etc. he did the custom stuff for the rabbit as well.