why am i killing 20V's????

[vwnut8392]

so as some of you may know i had a knocking problem a few months ago in my S6 that i technically never resolved. what i ended up doing was swapping in another 20V bottom end from marc. well as of last night this one started knocking now too and i have no idea what im doing wrong. i've been putting that car back to stock more and more to avoid this stuff so it just runs and drives. only thing done to it now is an MTM 1+ chip set with my launch control map mod, varimapset to 3BAR, RS2 manifold, 3in exhaust with screamer pipe, 1.9bar gate spring, fmic, 07K coil upgrade with custom made harness and thats about it. i put a stock K24 7000 back on the car and put the stock air box back in because i discovered that i was sucking the oil off the filter and it was screwing up my MAF slowly. MAF got a bath in 98% isopropyl alcohol and a paper filter installed in the stock air box. over all i cant run the car hard because i installed the wrong clutch disc by accident and it slips when i go above 10psi but driving the car like a normal human being the clutch works fine and holds. so i have no idea why these bottom ends keep failing. oh i changed my oil yesterday too before this happened, i used castrol 10-W40 and a half a bottle of lucas oil stabilizer in it too. right after the change i noticed the knocking. i use only bosch or mann oil filters on all my cars too. im totally clueless as to why it did this. im losing my faith in the good old 5 cylinder and its durability anymore because they arent holding up for me like they used to.

[dana]

do you have noisy lifters in your head that you are confusing for rod knock? Same head on both engines?

[vwnut8392]

i put all brand new lifters in a few months ago when i went through this with the original bottom end.

[dana]

ARP head studs crunching the check valve in the block and causing low oil pressure in head??
Don't know man.....maybe you just have really bad luck? Out of all the 5 bangers I've had and abused (and assembled badly), ive never had rod knock issues.

[pilihp2]

ARP head studs crunching the check valve in the block and causing low oil pressure in head??
Don't know man.....maybe you just have really bad luck? Out of all the 5 bangers I've had and abused (and assembled badly), ive never had rod knock issues.

Isn't that issue only for the main studs and not the head studs??

[dana]

possibly, i really dont remember. Just trying to throw out some random ideas.

[Mcstiff]

ARP head studs crunching the check valve in the block and causing low oil pressure in head??
Don't know man.....maybe you just have really bad luck? Out of all the 5 bangers I've had and abused (and assembled badly), ive never had rod knock issues.

Isn't that issue only for the main studs and not the head studs??

I'm 99% sure it's the head stud above the oil pressure ports which is the issue. The main is inside of the check valve.

[audifreakjim]

It's the main studs not the head studs that crush the check valve. BTDT

[Einbilden]

Do you have a engine oil cooler and if so did that get cleaned ? Do you have a oil pressure gauge ? What is your oil pressure?

[varia]

he posted it on FB, that he found "gold" in his oilpan

[Goldenquattro]

Having just installed a new check valve and ARP main and head studs on a AAN..how do you avoid crushing that check valve? I haven't started my engine yet on the rebuild. I put the together the engine over the winter but I think I remember 1 of the studs was shorter than the rest.

[audifreakjim]

The shorter stud will bottom out on the threads before it contacts the valve. If one isn't shorter some measurements and a slow moving cutoff wheel are in order

[vwnut8392]

hank iroz seems to thing its me playing the launch control that killed it. when i got the bottom end from marc i pulled the pan and had a peek but i didnt pull any caps or anything because i figured if marc said it was good i'll take his word for it. i feel i can always trust what marc says and im not mad at all about it, shit happens and it was probably my fault. also i figured if its good as marc said there's no point in disturbing the factory torqued bolts and such so i'll just leave it alone. here's 2 pictures of my findings. cylinder 1 was the problematic cylinder. i caught it in enough time that it did not damage the crank. there is a little tiny bit of bearing material on the cylinder 1 journal but i think some emery cloth and gently sanding it off with some oil to kind of wet sand it will get it back in shape. that old trick worked for my pap years ago when fixing old farm tractors that spun bearings and i did it once before in my 4000 and it worked so i'll give it another go.

i managed to get a new bearing set from summit racing for 36.00. their clevite brand which is a sister company to mahle so i would assume their a good quality bearing. i got them from summit cuz their right across the border in ohio so regular ground shipping is like over night to me. thats a little bit of winning i guess.

[loxxrider]

Hanks thoughts are in line with mine on this.

[audifreakjim]

Yeah, launch control is fun, till somebody melts a piston. It was appropriate in 20vt junkyard motor days for me, but not so much once real money is involved.

[carl]

You should have gone the coated bearing route if it's not too late. I had the same prob as you on brand new kolbenshmidt bearings on a rebuild. Was lucky i caught it immediately after a short run, that deep harmonic ping, crank was clean when i opened it up.

Sometime when the block was separated some crap got in the oil passages and found it's way to the crank bearings or was in the crank passages. Also found some plastic dipstick parts in the oil pan... This is all after cleaning: shooting air in the oil passages with the oil pump off and crank off with a suction air gun and gas. Found out gun cleaning kits are your friend for this.

Fwiw my vote would be more on piston damage vs bearings if it's a launch/antilag issue.

[vwnut8392]

You should have gone the coated bearing route if it's not too late. I had the same prob as you on brand new kolbenshmidt bearings on a rebuild. Was lucky i caught it immediately after a short run, that deep harmonic ping, crank was clean when i opened it up.

Sometime when the block was separated some crap got in the oil passages and found it's way to the crank bearings or was in the crank passages. Also found some plastic dipstick parts in the oil pan... This is all after cleaning: shooting air in the oil passages with the oil pump off and crank off with a suction air gun and gas. Found out gun cleaning kits are your friend for this.

Fwiw my vote would be more on piston damage vs bearings if it's a launch/antilag issue.

thanks for the input. like i posted above i did attempt to clean the crank but what i did wasnt enough for the second set of brearings. its back apart now and i've literally spent a large portion of the week under my car with strips of different grits of sand paper cleaning and polishing the crank journal. i started with 400 using motor oil to wet sand it in a sense, than i went to 800, than a 1000, than 1500 so far and the crank looks beautiful again. i used motor oil to wet sand it through the whole process. i figured its just soft aluminum thats melted to a forged steel crank so how bad could i really hurt the crank by doing this? my brother is supposed to bring equipment home from the machine shop to check the roundness of everything but if he slacks doing that i guess i'll just get good old plastigauge and check it that way in a few different spots on the crank and see what i come up with. i also oil sanded the mating surface where the bearing seats against the rod too. i have to order anther set of bearing shells now before i can check it with plastigauge. also i have dry film lubricant in an aerosol can and i thought about spraying a light coating of that on the bearings this time before install, not sure if its a good or bad idea but i have seen bearings for sale with dry film lubricants on them before.

[AngryTaco]

Go buy some damn assembly lube.

Bore gauge everything while clamped down.

Chances are theres an egged shape rod journal

[vwnut8392]

Go buy some damn assembly lube.

Bore gauge everything while clamped down.

Chances are theres an egged shape rod journal

i use permatex ultra slick religiously when i assemble every engine.

[deaner]

I typically don't want ANYthing on the backside of a bearing or on a journal when putting bearings in. Heck, when it was super hot in the shop I'd spray brakleen on my "wiping finger" to rid any moisture even lol. The slight crush of the bearings when torquing caps is crucial and you don't want anything to get in between the bearing and journal. Just my .02.

[carl]

You should have gone the coated bearing route if it's not too late. I had the same prob as you on brand new kolbenshmidt bearings on a rebuild. Was lucky i caught it immediately after a short run, that deep harmonic ping, crank was clean when i opened it up.

Sometime when the block was separated some crap got in the oil passages and found it's way to the crank bearings or was in the crank passages. Also found some plastic dipstick parts in the oil pan... This is all after cleaning: shooting air in the oil passages with the oil pump off and crank off with a suction air gun and gas. Found out gun cleaning kits are your friend for this.

Fwiw my vote would be more on piston damage vs bearings if it's a launch/antilag issue.

thanks for the input. like i posted above i did attempt to clean the crank but what i did wasnt enough for the second set of brearings. its back apart now and i've literally spent a large portion of the week under my car with strips of different grits of sand paper cleaning and polishing the crank journal. i started with 400 using motor oil to wet sand it in a sense, than i went to 800, than a 1000, than 1500 so far and the crank looks beautiful again. i used motor oil to wet sand it through the whole process. i figured its just soft aluminum thats melted to a forged steel crank so how bad could i really hurt the crank by doing this? my brother is supposed to bring equipment home from the machine shop to check the roundness of everything but if he slacks doing that i guess i'll just get good old plastigauge and check it that way in a few different spots on the crank and see what i come up with. i also oil sanded the mating surface where the bearing seats against the rod too. i have to order anther set of bearing shells now before i can check it with plastigauge. also i have dry film lubricant in an aerosol can and i thought about spraying a light coating of that on the bearings this time before install, not sure if its a good or bad idea but i have seen bearings for sale with dry film lubricants on them before.

Yea, def check for roundness specially after sanding. The dry film aerosol sounds like a really bad idea. You'll get inconsistent thicknesses from one to the other, blobs will form at the edges etc, go with professional coated if you have the budget. Also for break in, you should use high zinc (ZDDP) break in oil, vr1 or joe gibbs/driven break in oil is a good bet.

Bardahl no smoke is pretty good as assembly lube too imo. As long as the back of the bearings is clean, i don't see the problem in light coating them before torquing a little, spinning the crank then full torquing. Or course, you should do it twice, going back after all are done loosening back a 1/4 or so and re-tighten, so everything has "settled in" and stretched properly.

Almost forgot, if you are using the horseshoe type thrust bearing make sure to hammer the crank backwards then frontwards a little with a rubber hammer or something to make sure both sides line up.

[vwnut8392]

You should have gone the coated bearing route if it's not too late. I had the same prob as you on brand new kolbenshmidt bearings on a rebuild. Was lucky i caught it immediately after a short run, that deep harmonic ping, crank was clean when i opened it up.

Sometime when the block was separated some crap got in the oil passages and found it's way to the crank bearings or was in the crank passages. Also found some plastic dipstick parts in the oil pan... This is all after cleaning: shooting air in the oil passages with the oil pump off and crank off with a suction air gun and gas. Found out gun cleaning kits are your friend for this.

Fwiw my vote would be more on piston damage vs bearings if it's a launch/antilag issue.

thanks for the input. like i posted above i did attempt to clean the crank but what i did wasnt enough for the second set of brearings. its back apart now and i've literally spent a large portion of the week under my car with strips of different grits of sand paper cleaning and polishing the crank journal. i started with 400 using motor oil to wet sand it in a sense, than i went to 800, than a 1000, than 1500 so far and the crank looks beautiful again. i used motor oil to wet sand it through the whole process. i figured its just soft aluminum thats melted to a forged steel crank so how bad could i really hurt the crank by doing this? my brother is supposed to bring equipment home from the machine shop to check the roundness of everything but if he slacks doing that i guess i'll just get good old plastigauge and check it that way in a few different spots on the crank and see what i come up with. i also oil sanded the mating surface where the bearing seats against the rod too. i have to order anther set of bearing shells now before i can check it with plastigauge. also i have dry film lubricant in an aerosol can and i thought about spraying a light coating of that on the bearings this time before install, not sure if its a good or bad idea but i have seen bearings for sale with dry film lubricants on them before.

Yea, def check for roundness specially after sanding. The dry film aerosol sounds like a really bad idea. You'll get inconsistent thicknesses from one to the other, blobs will form at the edges etc, go with professional coated if you have the budget. Also for break in, you should use high zinc (ZDDP) break in oil, vr1 or joe gibbs/driven break in oil is a good bet.

Bardahl no smoke is pretty good as assembly lube too imo. As long as the back of the bearings is clean, i don't see the problem in light coating them before torquing a little, spinning the crank then full torquing. Or course, you should do it twice, going back after all are done loosening back a 1/4 or so and re-tighten, so everything has "settled in" and stretched properly.

Almost forgot, if you are using the horseshoe type thrust bearing make sure to hammer the crank backwards then frontwards a little with a rubber hammer or something to make sure both sides line up.

im waiting on tools from the machine shop to check roundness, i hope everything comes out ok. i axed the dry film idea too because thats the same conclusion i came up with too. i was thinking about trying to plastigauge the new rod bearings in several different places to see if i come up with different results. i havnt touched the mains at all in the engine but its probably something i should do have a look at. i figure i should pull atleast the main where the thrust washers are at and have a look. remember the engine is still in the car and im working under it on the floor, its not on a stand or anything.

[AngryTaco]

No excuses!!!!

My machine shops recommends a line hone when a rod spins. Theyve seen a lot of instances where metal will cause main wear. Their words, not mine. Not sure how much of that I believe but meh.

[vwnut8392]

No excuses!!!!

My machine shops recommends a line hone when a rod spins. Theyve seen a lot of instances where metal will cause main wear. Their words, not mine. Not sure how much of that I believe but meh.

I understand where the machine shops come from. My brother is a machinist and also one of the most OCD people I know when it comes to his work. I get heat warping the rod maybe but I dont understand how removing aluminum bearing material from forged steel crank and rod is such a complicated process that requires all this machine work. To me its like an aluminum can VS a forged steel hammer, I think the hammer will win and come out without a mark unlike the aluminum can.

Aside from that I feel I definitely didnt run it long enough to really heat up anything more than normal. As soon as I heard the slight clatter at 3000 rpm i shut the car down and had it towed it my garage for further diagnosis. The bearings on cylinder 1 rod where worn badly but didnt move out of place. there is no discoloration on any of the rods or the crank from access heat. One thing I did notice on this bottom end from my original one is that it always ran slightly higher oil temps than the original. I disregarded it as the sensor being goofy as ive seen them do it before plus the date on the second bottom end is 92 so I figured there might be a difference in the sensor from 92 to 95.

[vwnut8392]

well just to update on the dead rod bearing AAN my wet sanding the crank journal with different grits of sand paper and motor oil to clean it up plus repolish it worked out beautifully. it worked just like i thought it would work because the soft aluminum material came right off the forged crank and the forged rod. i figured it would work because of the fact that im not strong enough and neither is the oil soaked sand paper to really affect the forged steel parts. i have around 150 miles on it now and its still going!