The Project Pad

loxxrider wrote:

SEStone wrote:For our 1500whp stuff, we run two in-tank 044s feeding a single Weldon 2345-A mechanica hl pump with a 2-3gal surge tank in the back of the car, with -10 lines and regulators in the engine bay. Gasoline cars get 6x ID2000s. We're building one that will be running E85 that will be running two sets of injectors, likely 1000s and 2000s. Fuel supply has not be a problem thus far.

Sam

What is the fuel pressure you're running after boost? Maybe running a weldon in line makes it Ok to run higher pressure.

Hmm just noticed you said mechanical. I want to run one, but think it might be too complicated at the present time.

I stand corrected, the pump we run is not mechanical. Electrically driven.

I talked to John Bray, our engine builder and mastermind of all the race cars here. He generally runs 43.5psi if he doesn't have to run any higher (if he has enough injector). With the Weldon pump on a short run to the rails, and with the rails returning to the surge tank, he could get away with a single 044 tank pump feeding a good sized surge tank. We run 2-3 gal surge tanks like I said, and he said a single 044 would not let that tank run close to dry over a standing mile run with the main pump returning back. Something like Bonneville would be a different story, but two 044s would be sufficient then.

Sam

I got a reply from Weldon (Jim Craig is the man) and was told that the 2345A is the best pump for this setup. In reference to my flow and pressure requirements, he said, "All Weldon pumps can operate above 80 psi, that is just a test parameter we utilize….although the pumps do have their limitations and from your description you will be fine."

So the fuel system plan is now about 80% finalized.

-Weldon 2345-A pump (-12 inlet, -10 outlet)
-Weldon 2040 fuel pressure regulator (has -10 inlets, -8 outlet. Hopefully I don't have a problem getting to a low enough base pressure with this)
-Weldon 4000 Fuel Pump Controller (uses PWM to reduce pump RPM... VEMS will switch it to 100% mode when WOT)
-Weldon WEQ12100SSN 100 micron fuel filter for before the pump (-12 inlet and outlet)
-Weldon WEQ1010CLN 10 micron fuel filter placed just before the fuel rail (-10 in and out. Cellulose element to be replaced with ss element)
-Weldon WEQ10mcss replacement 10 micron filter (not listed on their website)
-Tank will need to have -10 vent line
- -10 feed line
- -10 return line

Now to make a list of all of this stuff and purchase fittings. I might go for quick release fittings at the filters.

loxxrider wrote:I got a reply from Weldon (Jim Craig is the man) and was told that the 2345A is the best pump for this setup. In reference to my flow and pressure requirements, he said, "All Weldon pumps can operate above 80 psi, that is just a test parameter we utilize….although the pumps do have their limitations and from your description you will be fine."

So the fuel system plan is now about 80% finalized.

-Weldon 2345-A pump (-12 inlet, -10 outlet)
-Weldon 2040 fuel pressure regulator (has -10 inlets, -8 outlet. Hopefully I don't have a problem getting to a low enough base pressure with this)
-Weldon 4000 Fuel Pump Controller (uses PWM to reduce pump RPM... VEMS will switch it to 100% mode when WOT)
-Weldon WEQ12100SSN 100 micron fuel filter for before the pump (-12 inlet and outlet)
-Weldon WEQ1010CLN 10 micron fuel filter placed just before the fuel rail (-10 in and out. Cellulose element to be replaced with ss element)
-Weldon WEQ10mcss replacement 10 micron filter (not listed on their website)
-Tank will need to have -10 vent line
- -10 feed line
- -10 return line

Now to make a list of all of this stuff and purchase fittings. I might go for quick release fittings at the filters.

send me part numbers. I can at least save you shipping. (we are direct with summit)

Thanks Marc, I will when the time comes. I also remember one of our members can get Weldon at a discounted price... I'll definitely be looking for a deal.

That is quite the fuel system!

audifreakjim wrote:That is quite the fuel system!

Right. Gotta have a fire hose to feed that beast!

That's the idea

Oh Haaaaank? I have a favor to ask of you... give me a call when you get a chance. I bought a euro TDI block from you along with some other bottom end components a while back. Mind shipping some things to Jeff Gerner? We also need to talk intake manifold modification to match what Gerner needs from it and to accommodate twin 1200cc injectors per cylinder.

Marc, we need to ship my dry sump parts to Gerner too. Might need to send Hank the manifold and downpipe as well for adjustments once we get a turbo picked out.



To everyone out there watching this, it looks like 2015 is going to be the year of the revver. It'll be slow until after the first of the year, but then it's on (I hope!)

EFR9180 too small for your needs? haha
http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/b ... turbo.html

Cannot wait!!

Heh, I think that one is a little small actually. While following that link, I came upon this video... holy wow that is fast!

http://vimeo.com/53130736

I'm thinking more along the lines of an S372, Pro52, etc. still. I think something with a divided 1.15-ish A/r T4 housing is a really good idea so that it can be used with a quick spool valve.

Now the great debate before this can move along is what block/crank/rod combo to go with. I'm concerned with longevity more than I am with spool. Spool doesn't matter too much as long as you can make up for it with RPM! (not to mention a QSV). The main three options are as follows:

Stock block/crank (86.4 mm) and rods (144 mm)
-rod ratio = 1.67
-piston acceleration = moderate
-block strength = good
-component availability in the event of failure = best

Euro/Diesel block with it's stock crank (95.5 mm) and 160 mm rods
-Rod ratio = 1.65
-Piston acceleration = higher (long stroke)
-block strength = highest (lots more webbing, etc. and comes with 12 mm studs)
-Parts availability = low

Euro/Diesel block with stock short deck crank (86.4 mm) and 160 mm rods
-Rod ratio = 1.85
-Piston acceleration = low
-block strength = highest (lots more webbing, etc. and comes with 12 mm studs)
-Parts availability = OK


I'm trying to figure out if one is better than another in terms of spool (mildly important), longevity (pretty important), and parts availability (moderately important, but highly dependent on the longevity factor!). There are more pros and cons to each that I haven't listed. Will wait for Hank and Jeff to chime in more off-forum to list those.

Educated opinions are welcome.

I vote tall deck with standard crank. Parts wise, unless you melt a piston or bend a rod I dont see an issue. The rods and Pistons I presume will be custom, so a 1 off replacement will be available as needed unless the manufacturer goes belly up. Maybe order 6 or 7 of each the first time around to have spares if necessary.

Hey Chris, found that turbo you were looking for.....

Lol nice, that's a real man's turbo!

The rods and pistons can actually be off the shelf 16v stuff, so that's not an issue at all. It's just sourcing the tdi block and crank that's not quite as easy.

scubadave wrote:Hey Chris, found that turbo you were looking for.....

photo.JPG

Nah, he needs twins!

Any reason you're mentioning the 95.5 crank, which isn't known to like revs vs. the 92.8 which is much more suited to such a task?

I was pretty stoked to find a deal on a 92.8 crank with 160mm rods. Pretty sure that's the combo in the new 2.5L motors and the 2.0tfsi strokers as well. Seems like the best rod ratio / displacement combo parts and longevity wise.

Those are awesome! I wonder what they are used for?


I don't want to use a 92.8 crank because it is too rare and expensive. I don't see why the 95.5 in a tall deck would be any worse for revving than an 86.4 in a regular block. They have the same rod ratio, but longer rods!

I vote 86.4 in 236mm block. Doooooo iiiiiiit

My vote is definitely for the tall block, with the 86.4 crank (though, I personally would use a 92.8 crank in there if I could trace one down)

PRY4SNO wrote:Any reason you're mentioning the 95.5 crank, which isn't known to like revs vs. the 92.8 which is much more suited to such a task?

I was pretty stoked to find a deal on a 92.8 crank with 160mm rods. Pretty sure that's the combo in the new 2.5L motors and the 2.0tfsi strokers as well. Seems like the best rod ratio / displacement combo parts and longevity wise.

After a reply from Jeff, I now know that the diesel crank is significantly heavier (bigger lobes) to deal with the heavier pistons. This will cause complications when it comes to balance the engine, and more. So, it looks like that is going to have to be out due to added complexity and custom work required.

loxxrider wrote:After a reply from Jeff, I now know that the diesel crank is significantly heavier (bigger lobes) to deal with the heavier pistons. This will cause complications when it comes to balance the engine, and more. So, it looks like that is going to have to be out due to added complexity and custom work required.

Would this go the same for the Eurovan 95,5 crank?

loxxrider wrote:Those are awesome! I wonder what they are used for?


I don't want to use a 92.8 crank because it is too rare and expensive. I don't see why the 95.5 in a tall deck would be any worse for revving than an 86.4 in a regular block. They have the same rod ratio, but longer rods!

They're from a former gasification plant that's now a park here in Seattle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Works_Park
There's a good 7'+ tall

I still have this BW Air Werks s400sx4 laying around. (S475) No way in hell will I ever have a head or dry sump to run it. Id make a killer deal. Brand new, just balanced last year.





Compressor:: (cold side) Over 98 lb/min
- Wheel: 75mm Inducer / 100.8mm Exducer w/ Extended Tip Technology <
- Housing: (select from menu)
#1. 5.00" ported anti-surge air inlet / V-band flange charge pipe outlet.
#2 Large High Flow Race Cover w/ 5.50" air inlet/ 3" slip-on charge pipe outlet with ballistic attenuator. (has tapered funnel/velocity stack fitted on the inside of the air inlet)

::Turbine:: (hot side)
- Wheel: 95.7mm Inducer / 88mm Exducer (Made of Inconel 713 for high-temperature operation)
- Housing: Large T6 Divided twin scroll inlet/ 5.00" V-band flange downpipe discharge
- A/R: 1.32 A/R

Lol. Jebus. The turbo is bigger than the engine