Eric's '90 80QT: rustic bits

[Hybrid_Hatch]

When i installed mine. I had to clock the compressor housing just right to allow the lines to work. I didnt need to bend or do anything to the lines.

[elaw]

Did Hank have anything to say about our discussion on the width of that inducer "slot" on page 27?

Unfortunately my communication with Hank has been almost nonexistent - actually the only way I knew the housing was on its way back was when I got an email from Fedex.

I'm going to compare it to the original Volvo housing but I haven't had time yet.

[elaw]

When i installed mine. I had to clock the compressor housing just right to allow the lines to work. I didnt need to bend or do anything to the lines.

Thanks... that's encouraging!

[DE80q]

Lets see this thing come together!

I love how clean yours looks. I strive to have mine as clean. Now if would only warm up a little, I could get mine running :frustrated:

[elaw]

Oh I hear you on that... it's a balmy 3 degrees outside right now. :(

[elaw]

Hey here's kind of a nebulous question for the turbo experts out there...

On the Volvo turbo, if I spin the shaft with the compressor housing off there seems to be some unevenness in the compressor blade heights right at the inducer. I'm not talking about the difference between the "half height" and "full height" blades, but it looks like there's a few thousandths' variation in the "top" of the blades when the shaft is positioned vertically.

Looking at the side when spinning it, there does not appear to be any variation in runout of the blades, it's just that one dimension. I've looked both the compressor wheel and housing over very carefully and I don't see any sign of damage or contact on either part (the shaft bearings are worn a little but not enough to allow anything to hit).

So my question is, is this something I should be worried about, or are some compressors "just like that"? I've had a few turbos apart in the past but they were all Garretts and I don't recall ever seeing an issue like this.

[Hybrid_Hatch]

just to show the turbo lines:




those pics are really dirty, but that was when i put a window in the block and oil was EVERYWHERE

[elaw]

Cool... thanks for the pics!

I'm going to have to take a look... I'm not sure with my setup whether I can clock the compressor housing that far around. I'm using a special v-band-to-hose adapter on the outlet that makes it about 2" longer, and I think that would put the hose connection way behind the oil cooler, which would require an awful lot of twists and turns to get to the intercooler.

[SC_09iduA]

You can just call up your local...or closest Audi dealer and order the mirror that you're after:

http://www.partsbase.org/audi/audi-coup ... 893857535g

They will have it sent in and call when it arrives...

[elaw]

If anyone's interested, I took some pix last night of the Volvo K24 beside its smaller Audi cousin...

Comparing the length of the two:

The difference is just about 1-3/8" and it's all in the compressor. A little of that is because the compressor is larger overall, but the majority is due to space required for the return passage for the built-in BPV.

A view of both compressors:

The OD of the Volvo turbo's compressor is about 3/4" larger than that of the Audi K24. As you can see, its outlet is longer too, and is made even longer by the hose adapter I'm using. I know there are other ways to connect a hose to this, but the adapter has a taper inside that provides a smooth transition from the ID of the compressor outlet to the ID of the hose, which I think will improve performance.

Here's a closeup of the adapter... it's held in place with a stock Volvo v-band clamp:

When installed in the car, it's going to stick downward an awfully long way. But in my current setup, right next to the compressor outlet there's a "t" hose section where the BPV is located, and that section can go away with the Volvo turbo. That'll give some extra space for that long compressor outlet.

Re the oil feed, I've decided that due to the long compressor outlet, clocking the turbo so the oil line clears the BPV would not be a good idea. The end of the outlet would be way behind my oil cooler and plumbing from there to the IC would be tricky and involve a lot of turns.

So instead I've decided to order some flange adapters with AN fittings, and some AN hose (braided-stainless-covered PTFE) and fittings, and make up a new oil feed line that will have no clearance issues.

[elaw]

And... we have a happily rebuilt turbocharger!

...okay, maybe the improvement is more on the inside than on the outside.

I will say it's amazing how you can have a turbo that seems to have "not very much shaft play" then have it rebuilt and find now what "not very much shaft play" really means. I guess I'm just not very good at guesstimating such things.

At this point this puppy is pretty much ready to bolt on! It's got its Audi-compatible exhaust housing, the little compression adapter fittings for the water lines, I think I've even got the hot and cold housings clocked approximately right. The only missing ingredient is the stuff to make up the oil fed line, which hopefully should be showing up midweek.

There are a few writeups on rebuilding these things online but let me throw out a few important things I noted along the way:
The nut holding the compressor wheel on is left-hand threaded, so rotate it clockwise to remove it. I used a 10mm 6-point 1/4"-drive socket on the nut, and a 12mm 6-point 3/8" socket on the nut at the other end of the shaft and it came off with no difficulty. There is threadlocker on the nut but it's not very strong.

Most writeups I've seen talk about pulling the compressor wheel off the shaft, and it apparently can be a bit tight. I took a different approach and drove the shaft out through the wheel. I think it's easier, and since you're not trying to hold onto the wheel you're less likely to damage it. I just put a piece of 1/2" x 2" oak I had lying around on the end of the shaft and tapped it through with a rubber mallet. It might not have worked if the compressor wheel was really tight, but in this case it worked well.

With the compressor wheel off, the shaft still did not want to slide out of the housing - I ended up tapping it most of the way out with the wood + mallet mentioned above. When I got it out I realized there was a buildup of varnish on the shaft between the bearings, which effectively increased its OD a little and kept it from sliding out easily. In my case it was a minor issue, but I could see on an old turbo where the car's oil was not changed regularly (thus having more buildup on the shaft) that this could be a nightmare.

The compressor backing plate is held to the housing with 4 bolts that are pretty tight, have threadlocker on them, and have a head that looks mostly, but not quite exactly, like a Torx. The "points of the star" on Torx bolts are somewhat rounded, on these bolts they're very square. I was able to get them out with a T30 bit but with the amount of torque required I think I'm lucky they didn't strip.

Once the compressor backing plate is off, there are various bits inside... none are held with fasteners, and if you just note what order they come off in, it's easy to put the turbo back together.

The bearings are held in by circlips as many people note in their writeups. What most people don't say is you need circlip pliers with *tiny* tips - about 0.035". And especially on the exhaust side, the circlips are pretty deep in the housing so the tips on the tool need to be very long. I cheated and didn't replace the inner circlips, but I bet on the exhaust side you'd need pliers with tips at least an inch and a half long to get in there.

Reassembling the unit, I used red loctite on the bolts for the compressor backing plate, and a small drop on the shaft nut. I couldn't find an "official" torque spec for the nut, although I did find a vendor selling upgraded compressor wheels with an installation video that specified 44 inch-pounds. But I also don't have a torque wrench that goes anywhere near that low, so I just guesstimated. We'll see how that works out.

Oh and one other thing: everyone tells you before taking the turbo apart to mark the rotational position of the compressor wheel relative to the turbine, then line them up the same way when you put it back together. What they don't tell you is the compressor wheel will rotate as you tighten the nut! It makes getting things lined up properly rather challenging.

[savagerocco]

Sweet hope you like it...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[elaw]

I hope so too! I've got pretty high expectations...

I did discover one potential "oopsie" this afternoon when I test-fit the turbo to my RS2 manifold. Oh, did I mention I scored an RS2 manifold?

Here's the issue:

When the turbo is clocked so its outlet points straight down, the built-in BOV comes *really* close to the exhaust manifold. I'd say the clearance is just a little over 1/8" - close enough IMHO to create a risk of the plastic cover on the BOV getting all melty which would be bad.

I'll figure out a solution when the unit is on the car - it'll probably be a combination of rotating the compressor housing a little more clockwise, and maybe a little homemade heat shield.

[elaw]

Well we've reached a milestone! I think this car has had it's first significant issue that has not been created by me! Well, except when it threw the alternator belt on the way home from buying it, but I fixed that by replacing the alternator and belt along with the engine.

So here's the deal: it's "consuming" brake fluid. The level has dropped from "max" to "min" twice in the last month or so. And I'm totally baffled as to where the fluid is going.

Here is my reasoning: the brake pedal does not sink, at all ever. And there's no sign of similar behavior with the clutch pedal although of course it's a little harder to tell. So in my mind, that rules out everything downstream of the respective master cylinders.

There isn't really much upstream of the cylinders - the hose going from the reservoir to the clutch master is fine, and it doesn't appear the reservoir or the grommets between it and the brake master are leaking.

So that leaves the master cylinders, right? If the clutch master outermost seal leaked, fluid would run into the car. Well I looked and there's no sign of that - everything under the dash is dry as can be.

So it has to be the brake master, right? Leaking into the booster (vacuum-assisted brakes)? Well tonight I pulled it off the booster and... nothing. It's dry as a bone in there.

I know the level will drop with pad wear, but I've only driven maybe 500 miles in the time period involved. And through the wheels I've eyeballed the pads on one side of the car (the side I can get to when it's in the garage) and there's a ton of meat on the pads.

And just to hit the other obvious one, no there's no visible leakage anywhere. Of course it's winter and the roads tend to be wet/icy/snowy so the car usually has water dripping off it when I park and it could be a bit hard to tell. But there don't seem to be any blue (I use ATE super blue fluid) puddles in the garage.

What am I missing? :?

[DE80q]

Its still possible that its the clutch slave. It is possible that it is leaking in twards the trans. Wouldnt be the first time that I have seen that. With it being as cold as it has been, everything shrinks, which you already knew. With no signs on the brake side, either up, or down stream, That really only leaves the clutch slave. Have you tried the press and hold test on the clutch?

[elaw]

Yeah I have and it seems okay but I agree that's the most likely candidate. It figures... the $@#!! slave was new 3 years ago and only has maybe 10K miles on it.

Maybe tonight I'll try pushing the clutch like 100 times without touching the brakes and see if the level in the reservoir drops any.

If I end up needing a new slave, does anyone have any suggestions on a good brand? Keeping in mind it's an 016 transmission so the slave needs to be the B2 flavor, not B3.

[elaw]

Well sometimes progress comes in large steps, and sometimes in small ones. This week it's small ones, but still progress!

First issue: a trivial thing but a thing can be either right or wrong and this is wrong:

That little brass boost tap will almost hit the turbo's inlet elbow, leaving pretty much no room to attach a hose.

Solution? A banjo fitting:

Problem solved!

And as I said, I'm going to be making my own oil feed line. AN fittings are a given, and I've gone back and forth about using hard line vs. hose. For now I think it'll be PTFE hose. I've got some fittings in hand, and the hose on the way. Plus of course flanges with AN fittings must be procured to attach to the turbo and the oil outlet on the engine.

I know 034 makes them, but the cost of two with ground shipping which might not get them here before I retire would be north of $50. With 3-day shipping, around $70. I wish those guys would offer USPS shipping - they do great at getting small items from one coast to the other quickly and for short money.

But I'm cheap and impatient so I chose another route: ebay fittings made to fit Garrett turbos, for $12 each with free shipping, machined by yours truly to fit the KKK and the engine. Behold:

Far from the best machining in the world, but good enough.

Here's the other one, installed on the turbo:

That one got an extra bit of notchage to clear the coolant fitting.

[elaw]

Okay... it's another day so here's another question!

It's decided that the ends of my oil feed line will connect to the -4 AN fittings on the flanges shown above (or actually "proper" ones I ordered from Marc Swanson this weekend, once I found out he had them). The question now is what will go between those fittings.

My original idea was to use stainless-braided PTFE (Teflon) line with appropriate fittings, which I've ordered. But the fittings aren't exactly the easiest things to work with, and have multiple points where they could leak. Or the line could pull out of the fitting if it wasn't assembled right, etc. etc. Bottom line is I'm seeing quite a few possible failure points especially given I'm a total noob with this type of thing.

So I'm wondering if I might be better off getting some SS tubing and making a hard line? In many respects it looks easier, and they only seal at one point on each end, rather than multiple points, so less chance of leakage. Since the line is going between two things that don't move relative to each other (ignoring thermal expansion), flexibility should not be an issue.

Where I'm getting stuck is it seems everyone recommends expensive flaring tools when working with SS tubing. If anyone out there has done this before... are those $$$ tools *really* necessary? I may well only end up doing two flares ever, and don't mind spending $30 for a tool for that, but $100 or more seems a little much. I'm also wondering if you use thinner-walled tubing is it easier? Most automotive folks seem to be using .038"-wall tubing. But McMaster has 0.010"-wall tubing that's rated for over 1,000 PSI... surely that's enough, and I'd think it would be easier to flare? OTOH I've seen some things that indicate thin-wall tubing is harder to bend.

So if anyone's got some BTDT advice, I'd appreciate it!

[DE80q]

I have done a lot of brake lines in the past. The cheap $30-$50 tool is all I have ever used. They work fine, just make sure you have some extra line for trial and error. The reason most recomend the expensive tool for the stainless is because it is a harder material. When using the cheap tool, go slow, and use some oil on it. That will keep the line from splitting and getting marked up from the flairing part of the tool.

As for the thinner line, I would say no. The thin wall tubing will be more likely to split when you try to flair it. It will also kink very eaisily when you try to bend it. Just stick with the standard .038 wall tubing, you wont kick yourself later for it.

But as for the AN fittings, there are plenty of youtube videos to show how to properly put them together. They are fairly easy, and not known to leak. My fersonal preferance would be to use those rather than a hard line.

You may also want to look into an oil retrictor. I know with my old garrette turbos, you would use a .062" limiter to keep the bearings from getting flooded, causing the turbo to leak. I dont know if that is a problem with the KKK turbos or not.

Just my $.02

[savagerocco]

I've flared several 6 mm stainless lines for cng conversions with a cheapy harbor freight flare tool. I also have used -4 an lines for oiling on more projects than I can recall and never had one fail. Also another thing to factor in is a restrictor for the oil line. Not sure if necessary on the k24 7400 or not but you can tap threads into the an fitting and get a set screw, drill the appropriate oriface usually .035 and then install into the an fitting at the turbo.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[elaw]

Brent,

Whose hose and fittings do you use?

I did decide to go with regular PTFE rather than hard line, but the stuff I got seems pretty cheesy. Given the criticalness (is that a word?) of the line, I'm thinking I might redo it with better stuff.

[elaw]

So at last I have meaningful progress to report with the Volvo K24! Really meaningful... as in, it's installed and I've been driving the car since last weekend. Where's the "yay" emoticon that other forums have? :-)

You've seen a lot of "before" pix in this thread already, and I don't have many "during" pix... I was too excited to get the thing installed to stop and shoot photos. So you'll just have to use your imagination.

Since I was working in the garage, one thing I was thrilled to discover was that no work needed to be done underneath the car. I was worried I'd have to disconnect the downpipe from the rest of the exhaust but with some creative maneuvering and "a little" prying that turned out not to be the case.

Another thing I managed to get away without doing was draining the coolant. I had visions of Old Faithful sprouting up from my car when I disconnected the coolant lines, but it didn't turn out that way. I pulled them off quickly and put caplugs on them, and maybe lost 4 ounces of coolant total.

One thing I definitely was not prepared for was the #@#!@@#!! level of difficulty installing the RS2 manifold. If you look at one next to a regular AAN manifold, it's clear they put some effort into ensuring you could access almost all the nuts holding the AAN mani on with a socket wrench. With the RS2 that's not the case - you need an open-end wrench or something similar to get on many of the nuts.

For the ones on the top that's no particular problem. And the ones on the end on the bottom can be accessed with a socket. The middle ones on the bottom... I've invented a few new curse words for those.

On most 5-cylinders it would be hard enough getting a wrench in there with the starter and oil filter adapter housing in the way. But I've got an extra barrier:

Yes... Yours Truly went and put a big ol' heatshield on top of the starter and filter adapter, that pretty much blocks all access to the bottom of the manifold. Removing the heatshield completely is difficult, although access to the front mounting points is pretty easy so I was able to move it out of the way a bit. Ultimately what did the job was a cheesy 1/2" open-end wrench I had lying around that with the help of a torch got a 90-degree bend in it and with the help of a file became a 13mm. But I tell ya, if that manifold ever has to come off I think I'm going to sell the car.

So that was incredibly-annoying-issue #1. Incredibly-annoying-issue #2 came shortly afterward.

You may have noticed from the pix I posted previously that the outlet connection on the turbo's compressor sticks out a fair amount... and with the IPD adapter it sticks out a whole lot more. I was concerned that the length of the whole thing would be a problem.

Well guess what? The length was not a problem. But the width was! :frustrated:

With the outlet pointed (more or less) straight down, the v-band connection between the outlet and the adapter is right next to the oil drain line for the turbo. And the outlet and the adapter clear the oil drain line... barely. But wait... a v-band fitting needs a clamp on it! Well not this one... with the clamp installed it does NOT clear the oil drain line. Even rotating the housing didn't help, unless I rotated it so far I couldn't connect to it.

So luckily for me, my friendly local welding buddy was working on Monday, and saved my bacon. This is one v-band fitting that's *never* coming apart:


The rest of the install story is pretty boring... stuff just pretty much fit together. It was a lot of work, but the only real snags were the ones I described above. I did decide I didn't like my homemade (okay home-modified) -AN-to-flange fittings, so I bought a couple of the right ones from Marc Swanson.

The one other thing I'll throw out is I don't know how some people manage to use 3" cobra-head elbows in these installations... maybe it's a tolerance thing between cars. As this photo sort of shows, using a 2-1/2" elbow I've only got maybe 1/2" of clearance to the vertical member of the core support:

I can't remember if I posted a photo earlier, but the 3" one sticks out over an inch farther... there's no way it would have fit.

I'll leave you with a couple of photos that show how it looks all together:

[elaw]

One thing I didn't cover in the last post was how the new turbo performs!

The truth is, I haven't really fully been able to put it through its paces yet. The roads have been snow-covered most of the days this week, and I'm still in the process of tuning it. It clearly has more power potential than the stock K24, although I don't exactly feel like I'm in danger of getting whiplash from excessive acceleration.

One thing about it that's hard to quantify is it just seems to have smoother boost delivery. I'm not sure if it's because it was worn, but the way the old turbo worked was it would spool quickly up to about 5 PSI of boost. Then it would say "Oh you want more? Okay, fill out these 3 forms in triplicate and I'll see what I can do". It would eventually pump out about 20 PSI but you could tell it was struggling. This turbo just smoothly ramps up to whatever amount of boost you want.

As far as the RPM at which it spools, I'd say that first 5 PSI came maybe 300-400 RPM sooner with the old turbo. But once the new one gets going, it *keeps* going. Once I've got it tuned to run at 20 PSI I'll try to compare some logs, but I suspect the two turbos hit max boost at about the same RPM, or maybe the new one hits it just a tiny bit earlier.

One other thing I want to throw out on a completely different subject... I know there's sometimes some debate about welding exhaust manifolds. Well... I give you this:





Okay that was more of a "these" than a "this". :wink:

That's the manifold I bought when I put the AAN in my 4K. It came with with quite a large crack in it (the manifold, not the car), and was welded by my buddy. That was in the summer of 2010, and since then the engine's done maybe 15K miles in two different cars. Many of those miles were pretty easy, but it's seen it's share of 15-20 PSI boost pulls too, and it's still in fine shape.

[pkw]

driving impressions????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[pkw]

so you posted while I was "?...."
but still drive it more and dyno please. : )