The Project Pad

Hello Everyone,

I haven't been too active on PP but this seems like the place to be for project threads. I'm relatively new to the Audi scene but picked up my B4 DD about 3 years ago when I wanted to get into Rally. Realizing I can't Rally my DD I picked up a really rough CQ off a buddy that had been sitting in his Parent's for 5 years after the slave cylinder went.

I knew I wanted a rough CQ because I have no intention of restoring, but instead RallyX, Rally Sprints, and eventually Stage Rally. So for 450 bucks I picked up this '91 CQ and rough might be generous. The interior had sitting water in it for some time so everything made of carpet/cloth is moldy. Interior steel parts are corroding (seat frames, brackets etc.). Mice have made homes in the airbox, muffler and hood lining (at least that's all I've found so far. Every Suspension/underside bolt is corroded or stuck and many are missing, backed off or broken - Car has a really rough maintenance history for only 101K miles.

This past weekend I finally got to start it for the first time in nearly 6 years - I am amazed at how easily the motor started after all those years. The story leading up to that can be found here on my wordpress site. It's written for non-technical folks so it may not be the most interesting to all but it does have lots of pictures!:

[url]davescq.wordpress.com[/url]

Anyway, that's the past. Moving forward, I'll be breaking down the suspension to grind, clean and repaint all structural components, replace all hardware, and all wear items. Once I get to the bottom of the suspension I'll be doing fuel lines and the slave cylinder.

My first question is in regards to Bushing choice. I don't want to go rigid like a track car but I want something that will feel better than OEM. I was thinking Poly bushings for the subframe and OEM Rubber for control Arms. I know the upper strut mount is problematic so looking input there too. Open to suggestions here!

Heres a little image history:

Picking up the car, we had to remove the rear brakes as the rotors, pads, and calipers were all now one corroded nightmare. oh and my girlfriend there being super helpful



The car sat in VT for the summer of '14, this was the first day kind of breaking things down and checking it all out - this is my first coupe, lots of learning



To get the motor unsiezed, I let some oil and PB Blaster sit in it overnight and the next day I was able to break it free but man did it rotate hard... well that'd be because I left it in gear:



This was the only way the car moved around last summer:



I did a timing belt job with all the goodies and generally just started pulling out a bunch of stuff that didn't seem relevant to my plans... oh and I fought bees, spiders, mice, ants others. Nature was well on it's way to reclaiming this car when I got to it.



When winter came around, I found a garage local to the boston area and signed a lease on it, it was time to get a little more serious about the project if I was ever going to get the car going.



The car got rather dirty on the way down to Mass but it's in the garage now and I can get serious about the project!

Right on, another gravel jalopy! This thread needs moooar pictures!
For my rally rig, I'm planning on solid subframe bushings, poly control arm bushings and CompBrake strut mounts all the way around. Only mounts "off the shelf" I've heard of worth a damn on gravel are the compbrakes.

Welcome! I'm looking forward to your "restoration" of this as well as the modifications you will need to do for rally. Poly is certainly the way to go if you want stiffer than stock, but not race car stiff. Not sure what you'd want where though. I'd probably just do everything available in poly if that was my goal.

Good to see you here!

For mounts, I'd opt for HPR all around... either through Jared/AngryTaco or Marc @ EFI Express. Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is poly will deflect in suspension and alter the geometry (camber, I think) where as something like delrin won't. Someone please enlighten me if I've mixed that up.

If you want something a bit cheaper the Boge/Meyle OEM mounts are a great fit and pair up very well with VAP/Mance MountSavers if you can source some. If not, maybe try some kind of DIY spacer using a large washer and some kind of grommet.



Looking forward to more, this sounds like a killer project!

Woohoo. More rally! You planning on open light?

I guess people weren't kidding when they say this site gets more traffic!

These Compbrake mounts look awesome, really great construction and I'd love to avoid modifying the upper Strut perch if I don't have. Price seems very reasonable too if they are as good as they look.

Link: http://www.compbrake.com/product/audi-90-front-fixed-top-mount/

I don't know anything about the HPR mounts. Sounds like they're made of Delrin? Delrin is really hard stuff so I would agree that it would not deform under heavy load like maybe Poly would.

OEM << Poly < Delrin/Acetal < Aluminum

That's how I understand the bushing breakdown of material.

I would definitely be interested in purchasing some of those VAP mount savers I've seen others' cars but they sounds pretty difficult to get your hands on them. I have access to machines at work so I would certainly consider making them, maybe anyone has any drawings/dims/close up pics of what's going on there...

I've been considering machining my own bushings too. Poly/Delrin is easy enough to machine, and bushings are pretty basic in design. We'll see... If anyone has measurements that they've built off of, I could get that started before my components are clean enough to measure off of.

I'll post up pics in a sort of visual timeline tomorrow.

WRT Mount savers, you could probably figure it out by measuring an unused mount. They fill the gap between the "body" of the mount and the strut tower so that the mount cannot collapse:

Ed, are those MS2 or MS1?

What's the difference between VAP and MRT Mount savers? different people making them? Are both out of production now?

As far as construction/assembly... It looks like you just take a regular ol' OEM Strut mount, put in a poly insert (red ring) and then an aluminum insert (Silver ring). From the second picture it looks like the castle nut is retained so what is all that extra hardware for?

The hpr engine and trans mounts are poly actually.

Delrin is very easy to machine, but poly isn't. It deflects when you try to cut it, even with very sharp carbide cutters. The only way I've had semi success cutting it is by cutting at very high speeds.

loxxrider wrote:The hpr engine and trans mounts are poly actually.

Delrin is very easy to machine, but poly isn't. It deflects when you try to cut it, even with very sharp carbide cutters. The only way I've had semi success cutting it is by cutting at very high speeds.

I have told this to jarid as well, when cutting poly or rubber, you need to freeze it with dry ice, or in my case liquid nitrogen first. This will allow it to become hard enough to machine, but not so hard it becomes brittle. Hope that helps.

Wish I had liquid nitrogen on tap!

ringbearer wrote:Wish I had liquid nitrogen on tap!

Thats on nice part of my job. We use it to shink steel steel sleeves, so we always have it. It does make a lot of things easier to do.

DE80q wrote:

loxxrider wrote:The hpr engine and trans mounts are poly actually.

Delrin is very easy to machine, but poly isn't. It deflects when you try to cut it, even with very sharp carbide cutters. The only way I've had semi success cutting it is by cutting at very high speeds.

I have told this to jarid as well, when cutting poly or rubber, you need to freeze it with dry ice, or in my case liquid nitrogen first. This will allow it to become hard enough to machine, but not so hard it becomes brittle. Hope that helps.

Yes, that's the other thing I forgot to mention. It is many times easier to cut when frozen. I only froze it in my freezer though when I was attempting to machine it. That made it very stressful to cut because it only stayed hard for so long!

Ahhh I never have actually machined polly and was assuming it would be similar to Delrin. I can definitely see how it could deform and bite and twist and all that jazz...

No liquid nitrogen on tap here either, although it would be good fun to play with...

Does anyone make Poly Bushings for these cars?

Powerflex has good pricing for Delrin subframe bushings ~115 for both. Has anyone used them before?

dalspaugh wrote:What's the difference between VAP and MRT Mount savers? different people making them? Are both out of production now?

As far as construction/assembly... It looks like you just take a regular ol' OEM Strut mount, put in a poly insert (red ring) and then an aluminum insert (Silver ring). From the second picture it looks like the castle nut is retained so what is all that extra hardware for?

Not sure what MRT is?

Anyway, the top pic are actually pro mounts, I think, which means that they have the center bearing removed and replaced with a spherical bearing. The sleeves adapt the bearing to the correct strut size and the fancy nut holds everything together. The different nuts allow the use of different struts (urQ, urS, etc).

Mcstiff wrote:

dalspaugh wrote:What's the difference between VAP and MRT Mount savers? different people making them? Are both out of production now?

As far as construction/assembly... It looks like you just take a regular ol' OEM Strut mount, put in a poly insert (red ring) and then an aluminum insert (Silver ring). From the second picture it looks like the castle nut is retained so what is all that extra hardware for?

Not sure what MRT is?

Anyway, the top pic are actually pro mounts, I think, which means that they have the center bearing removed and replaced with a spherical bearing. The sleeves adapt the bearing to the correct strut size and the fancy nut holds everything together. The different nuts allow the use of different struts (urQ, urS, etc).

nvm... I'm an idiot, wrt... (with regards to...) Idk why I thought it was MRT... moving on

Ah Ok, I was wondering what happened to the bearing there. Got it. What are the details on these Pro Mounts? also made by Mance and NLA?

Also, I'm wondering if I could make "poor man" strut savers and just take an OEM strut mount and then put in a Poly insert to fill the gap in a similar fashion....

deaner wrote:Right on, another gravel jalopy! This thread needs moooar pictures!
For my rally rig, I'm planning on solid subframe bushings, poly control arm bushings and CompBrake strut mounts all the way around. Only mounts "off the shelf" I've heard of worth a damn on gravel are the compbrakes.

deaner, how are you going to get those front strut mounts to work in the rear?? Also, are you sourcing the poly inserts or making them?

dalspaugh wrote:

deaner wrote:Right on, another gravel jalopy! This thread needs moooar pictures!
For my rally rig, I'm planning on solid subframe bushings, poly control arm bushings and CompBrake strut mounts all the way around. Only mounts "off the shelf" I've heard of worth a damn on gravel are the compbrakes.

deaner, how are you going to get those front strut mounts to work in the rear?? Also, are you sourcing the poly inserts or making them?

I guess I never really thought too deeply about the strut mount compatibility for the rear. I just figured that factory rear replacement b4 stuff are the same part numbers as b390 mounts and assumed CBs b4/s2 rear mounts would work. Unless I'm missing something? Which could very well be the case lol.

As for bushings, I'll more than likely buy. I'm collecting parts in preperation for a major suspension/brake overhaul in a year or two. Cars still aways away and will be plenty of bugs to work out before I get too serious about the suspension. I'll do refreshened/strengthened subframes/controls arms, diff mounts, 5 lug swap, brake upgrade and 46mm struts/coilovers all in one shot after we get moved and settled next year. Moving from MN to idaho..... I'll build coilovers for Tarmac/hillclimbs for the time being and prob stockish suspension for the first rally. Word on the street is the Idaho Rally is pretty smooth, so I should be alright for getting started. I'm not quite ready to jump into $2500+ gravel suspension yet.

Oh, ya know I never realized that the rear and front upper bushing set up was the same. I've just been assuming that it would be some wildly different design... and its not really. good to know.

Where are you sourcing the poly bushings from? I've only found delrin so far.

And yes, I'm in the same boat, I'm not ready to put down the cash for nice rally coilovers. But on my car at least, I wouldn't feel safe in it without replacing all the corroded/seized hardware and dissolving bushings so I might as well replace it with what I want long term.

So I got a few hours in between this weekend and last night. Finally the Northeast is warming up and the garage isn't a freezer...

I got the drivers side front suspension apart but unfortunately not without ruining the ABS sensor (the other side came right out!) and having to cut the sway bar end link in half due to corroded bolts on both ends. oh well.

I guess I should have the conversation about whether or not I should keep the ABS in tact. I'll definitely take some opinions on that one. I love the idea of the reduced complexity of the car and I have driven (lemons) racecars without it... I'm leaning towards pulling it for now.

Last night I put a mask on and dove into the interior. I've gutted a few cars now and I must say that this CQ was not one of the easier ones. Can anyone offer up some advice on removing the front seat bases? All the bracketry underneath mine are so corroded and nasty its hard to tell what's going on there.



If anyone is looking for any interior pieces, speak up now! My garage doesn't have a lot of space and most of the stuff is pretty nasty so I won't be keeping it long. This week only probably! Some stuff did come out OK like most seat belts, some plastic interior trim pieces, the rear seats look good, etc. etc. just ask. All fabric is moldy and nasty - you don't want it. really.



And no, the little kids play cart thingy didn't come out of the car... that was being used by the rats as part of their nest. I'm not sure what was more disgusting, my rental garage or this old coupe...

Anyway, current state of the interior:





Anyone know what the green canister is in the wheel well there? Something vacuum related? Previous owner's drug stash?

This is mostly a one-man job so progress is a bit slow!

Not seeing a green canister. I'm using a set of ford cosworth top mounts with a nice inexpensive 7/8" bearing sourced from JVL up in seattle, he whipped up some sleeves to fit the pin on the strut to the bearing too. I'm not entirely happy with the top retaining bit of the mount, simply because there is no locking mechanism and I'm gonna need to add safety wire as a solution. The rest of the mount I'm super enthusiastic about. I simply hot knifed the solid rubber section off a stock mount and slid it over the ford unit. I had to clearance the hole in the tower a couple of Mm but nothing a careful die grinder couldn't handle.



I've spent some more time out in the car recently and really dig the suspension John's come up with. I will say it's very difficult to not do illegal things with the car. It simply likes being sideways.

Frankly I tossed the ABS system right into the garbage without a second glance. Simplify's the brake plumbing, and most people will tell you it was a shit system anyway.

Seat bases slide back until they can be lifted vertically out.

Ahh that's an interesting setup. I'm not sure I totally understand how that piece interfaces with the strut below...

I know I've browsed through your MG thread before, I think you're the closest to an active rally CQ that I've found so far! So I'll gladly take some advice! Who is John?/JVL?
Also, bummer that all your pic links broke here on PP....

As for the green canister, it's inside, just below the driver's side rear window...

OK, ABS removal sounds like fun. Is this car smart enough to know its not engaged and throw a light or something?

And I think i'll have to get creative on the seat bottoms, the tracks are seized in the position it was in 6 years ago...

John is on Rally Anarchy, and has his phone number posted all over the place over there. He's the guy who whipped up the 50mm inverted suspension I'm using. His prices are what I would consider very affordable for the product.

Any of the 4k/b3 rally cars are good reference points. All use the same suspension/brakes/ etc just a slightly different body style. Paul Johansen has a coupe rally car out in Minnesota(or somewhere) I think that just got completed 6 months or so ago.

Stinking pictures keep doing that. I'll have to spend a couple hours fixing them one of these days. They are also all in my facebook albums if you care. https://www.facebook.com/anthony.j.johnson.79

That strut top is just like any other. there is a spherical bearing up the center that the strut slides into.

Now I am in love with that top mount. Please tell me more... where can I source all the parts?