The Project Pad

Hey all,

So after sitting under a cover for 9+ months, I finally uncovered the old 4000 to do a little prep work on it for the NEQ Watkins Glen event in a few weeks.

That being said, I've been chasing down a strange cut-out when going around turns on the track. This started happening when I changed over to the Ic ECU from my Ib, but having a tough time figuring out WHY it's happening. Does it going sharp left or right, but I believe moreso going right.

When poking around, I found that I melted yet ANOTHER mustang mount on the pass side... so I'm now on my 3rd.

First one melted and I had essentially no heat shield.



So being so much wiser, I decided to use some high heat insulation to help fend this off from happening AGAIN...

The second one started like this:



And this was the result despite the insulation:



sooooooo, what are you all doing out there for heat shielding?

I have wrap around the downpipe, but nothing on the turbo itself. I'm sure a blanket of sorts around the snail would help tremendously, but what other type of shielding are you all using? Help me keep this mustang mount intact!

Also, I'm hoping this helps cure the cut out issue... like the motor was shifting around enough to disrupt the 60-2 wheel on the crank (a reach, but a fella can dream). Logs don't show any hiccups, but folks behind me when it happens say a big puff of black smoke out the tail pipe, which is telling me there's some type of ignition cut. I'm also going to go dig into the ECU area to see if there are any loose wires, but figuring I'd start here first.

Thanks folks!

Big fella... you know I roll "N.A." but I had the manifold and downpipe "Jet hot coated" and I still wrapped the crap out of both!
The big challenge is to keep heat away from the intake manifold and heat soaking it, even on my NA 20v, i can imagine the turbo is 100 times worse.
I'd wrap the manifold with blanket material, get a cover for the turbo and then wrap the crap out of the down pipe.
Not only will you keep the heat away from the intake, you'll keep from melting the engine mount!

For the down pipe: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/the-11032

Blanket for the manifold: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/the-14004/overview/
The blanket burns like crazy and stinks like hell, but after a couple of hours of running it'll stop burning.

To answer your second question: I have an identical EFI setup to yours on both cars: coupe and 4000q
I've had the coupe cut out before, it's always the cable for the VR sensor, the output of the VR is incredibly wimpy, it therefore can pickup alot of noise on it's way to the ECU.
It's critical that it's shielded with the proper cable and the shield is grounded only at the ECU (it acts like an antenna), I've routed the cable slightly differently and that fixed the cutout....

I have Jarid's epic mounts, and melted it too. Down pipe is wrapped, but no shield on the mount itself for round one. This was about 1 year of normal road driving.



I now have a heat shield on it, but haven't done much other than tuning, and drive to Carlisle. Hoping the second I sent holds up better. Sorry, no pics of the shield itself, but it was a piece of aluminum thT was cut and bent to sit on top of the mount itself.

I have the same problem and I might have a strange solution. . .
My first mount melted despite my half assed effort to shield it with an old licence plate. Since energy suspension makes everything to order I was in a tight spot getting the car ready for a race a few weeks ago. I ended up cutting away what was left of the poly on the top half, then cut a square of rubber conveyer belting, put a hole in it big enough for the round steel part of the mount to pass thru it, then slipped the square between the 2 pieces of steel. I left the bottom half of polyurethane alone since it was still in tact and wrapped it all up in foil like a baked potato. It's still holding so I haven't felt the need to put my new poly one back on.



Forgot to take a picture with the rubber square installed, I just drilled it to size, put a slit in one side then glued it in place with black silicon. I couldn't find any info on the melting point of polyurethane. The Internet claims it doesn't melt but us 20vt owners know that's a laugh. My EGT's hold strong at 1350° (after the turbo )on the highway and the rubber still seems to be holding for now.

The factory 5ktq had a fresh air duct pointed at the engine mount. Might try that, or cover the thing in gold foil insulation.

Sam

SEStone wrote:The factory 5ktq had a fresh air duct pointed at the engine mount.
Sam

hah! that is so audi.

SEStone wrote:The factory 5ktq had a fresh air duct pointed at the engine mount. Might try that, or cover the thing in gold foil insulation.

Sam

Ha, that might be an idea... my only fear is, it just makes an oven instead! The stuff I had around it before was a 1700* rated insulation (metal on outside, fiberglass on inside)... and the poly literally melted and bonded to the insulation!

If this melts (which it will) I am probably going to build my own mount w/ flippin' hockey pucks that are a bit more resilient!

What are recommendations for turbo blankets? It's a Garrett 2871 turbo if that matters at all.

thoughts?



http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-TURBO-HEAT-S ... uY&vxp=mtr

Bam!!
Does it fit a K24 big fella???

Also keep in mind that the engine bracket is picking up alot of the radiated heat from the ex. man and turbo, that might be enough along with the ambient heat to heat up and melt the mount, maybe that's why your heat shield was not very effective...

What are you doing for intake cooling?
wrapping the intake pipe?
034 phenolic spacer for intake man?
water/meth injection?
E85?

20v turbo's intake temps are horrible, when the car is run in northern europe (where it was designed), it probably sees average high ambient temps in the 50's and 60's and the lows close to zero!

type85 wrote:
Also keep in mind that the engine bracket is picking up alot of the radiated heat from the ex. man and turbo, that might be enough along with the ambient heat

Always felt like this is the root of the problem, the heat soaking in from the cast mount.

I think my end all solution will be a coated tubular manifold and motor mount ram air like the 5k

All you need is a piece of sheet metal above the mount to block the radiant heat. Hood vents help too, allows the hot air to escape, and sucks in cool air from below in the process.

audifreakjim wrote:All you need is a piece of sheet metal above the mount to block the radiant heat. Hood vents help too, allows the hot air to escape, and sucks in cool air from below in the process.

That's how the heat shield was the first time around, but that ended up falling off... lol.

I ordered the turbo blanket to see if that'll help a little. I'll bend up a piece of sheet metal as well to see if that will work.

I might try to get an infrared thermometer for Watkins Glen just to put a laser on the actual cast arm to see how hot that puppy gets too.

And I do have the carbon fiber SQ in the upstairs of my garage... just haven't brought myself to tossing it on, as I almost like the stock hood too much at this point... heh.

We'll see I guess!

type85 wrote:Bam!!
Does it fit a K24 big fella???

Also keep in mind that the engine bracket is picking up alot of the radiated heat from the ex. man and turbo, that might be enough along with the ambient heat to heat up and melt the mount, maybe that's why your heat shield was not very effective...

What are you doing for intake cooling?
wrapping the intake pipe?
034 phenolic spacer for intake man?
water/meth injection?
E85?

20v turbo's intake temps are horrible, when the car is run in northern europe (where it was designed), it probably sees average high ambient temps in the 50's and 60's and the lows close to zero!

Big fella - I have done zero for intake cooling... but as a few of you mentioned, the arm heating up might be an issue, and something I'll have to look into.

You could do what i did for my intake plumbing, use a stainless sheet with some mounting and a few little holes, wrap it in heat shield wrap with some stainless zipties running through the holes. I have a rubber hose running about 2 inches away from exhaust manifold that way and 0 signs of heat wear.

I found that the 5k clamshell mount shields work really well. There's one that's cup shaped, and if you drill a hole in the center it covers the mount nicely. I'll get a picture of mine tonight if I can remember...

Well, step 1 of many... picked up a turbo blanket off ebay. We'll see how it works at Watkins Glen next week



Figured this is worth a shot. I tossed part of my old heat shield back, but I think I'll look into the clamshell mounts shields that viridla spoke about. I know I saw one similar to that on our UrQ when we tore it down, and think that might be a way to go. That or I can fab one up... but for right now, I think this will do the trick.

If only I could hit the lotto and get one of those purdy engines from Hank... this wouldn't be an issue anymore!


I also rerouted my VR sensor wiring. Turns out I had it in the same tie-downs as the power wire to the starter motor. On top of that, the plug itself b/n the sensor and the ECU wire was just loose under the pass headlight.

As I go around the track, the hiccuping would get worse as the car warmed up. It being loose and allowing to flop around makes me think that might be one of the big reasons. So pulled it out of the hold downs and gave it its own path and tied the plug down properly. We'll see how that worked out.

Haven't taken the car off jackstands yet, but I was able to address a bunch of things that needed to be done. Maybe I'll get time to work on the interior finally!

Here is how I did mine. Sorry for the not so great pic. Not easy getting a shot with it installed.

Not particularly flattering images since it's installed, but it looks like I drilled the hole offset. Bracket shields the mount on engine side, and then the whole mount is covered by that cup on the chassis side.

http://i.imgur.com/hQiPDH4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EEScRxP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KNIT5Mh.jpg

audifreakjim wrote:All you need is a piece of sheet metal above the mount to block the radiant heat. Hood vents help too, allows the hot air to escape, and sucks in cool air from below in the process.

Agreed. ON my old 4000 turbo i just cut a plate of heavy gauge stainless, and bent it at a 45degree angle with a hole in the top and sandwiched it between the mount and the arm from the engine. Its a heat "Shield" not a blanket. But allows cool airflow over the mount. That blanket your are wrapping it in works both ways IMHO. Wrap it like a baked potato and it can't cool itself down.

Also noticed "Viridia" has a similar setup. Exact same idea as what I did.

zarati wrote:

audifreakjim wrote:All you need is a piece of sheet metal above the mount to block the radiant heat. Hood vents help too, allows the hot air to escape, and sucks in cool air from below in the process.

Agreed. ON my old 4000 turbo i just cut a plate of heavy gauge stainless, and bent it at a 45degree angle with a hole in the top and sandwiched it between the mount and the arm from the engine. Its a heat "Shield" not a blanket. But allows cool airflow over the mount. That blanket your are wrapping it in works both ways IMHO. Wrap it like a baked potato and it can't cool itself down.

Also noticed "Viridia" has a similar setup. Exact same idea as what I did.

Yup, I agree with that assumption! Esp when the piece of insulation was literally glued to the melted mount

That being said, it survived a weekend of beating. Blanket seemed to do the trick, as weil as a reduced "shield" that didn't completely cover the mount.

Need to update the build thread, but things went well overall w/ the 'ol bird!

so my rubber quick fix lasted the rest of the summer but eventually started hanging lower again untill the downpipe was rubbing the body. I replaced it with a new energy mount and came to a realization that the extra steel plate that comes with the mount will help keep the mount from sagging so i installed it this time. you can literally watch that plate raise the engine while you tighten the lower nuts, (even when you are supporting the engine at normal height) it pushes up on the bottom of the mount and helps support the weight.

I thought i would post here because im curious how many people arent running that plate with the energy mount.