91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

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91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:42 pm

Hi everyone, just registered this is my first post.

We have been racing a 200 20v the last few years on the west coast in Chumpcar and now luckyDog racing. We had the engine go at the end of the year 2015 so now I'm in the rebuild and upgrade process. Anyone familiar with chump car racing knows about the build rules and we had stayed within those. Now we are going to race "EC" class and luckydog which is more open for building. I'm hoping that everyone can help guide me in purchasing the right parts and making a pretty killer car, I'm an experienced mechanic and actually own a car dealership, but I could really use some insights.

The car is currently a pretty stock drivetrain 91 200 20v. We gutted the car, had RaceTech build a custom cage and painted it simular to the Audi DTM early V8 cars. The mods that we currently have are 17z front calipers with C230 sport rotors, no bracket, just used a grinder and some brass sleeves, works amazing on this car. The rear brakes are stock. Engine mods are a Ben Swan chipped ecu with spring, that's it! The seat is a composite RaceTech with dual locking sliders since we have a wide range of drivers for the 24 hour races. We are also using the stock cluster but it went haywire last year. Added some switch panel items in the lower center console. The dash is stock but covered in Alcantara! looks cool. We also have a fire safe fire system. Front windshield is stock, rear is lexan, we've been racing with the door frames out and the crash bars off, it makes the doors insanely lite weight, but I think that I'll add the rear door frames in again and switch the glass to lexan with a driver vent.

What I'm going to try and do is make this first post a place to keep track of brainstorming ideas people might have for certain areas of the car, then I'll update them as we make the upgrades so that people can see what we end up with. Hopefully it will convince someone to do the same thing and come race with us! Any ideas or advice is greatly appreciated, forgive me if I come up with ideas that are just plain Stupid...


Needed Car Upgrades
    Body
Second windows upgrade to lexan?
The hood is very heavy, possibly build a carbon fiber or fiberglass hood, possibly even all the body panels:
Other ideas???
    Fix----
-I've been looking online at a company in england that makes a carbon fiber kit, it includes everything to make the mold and build the part, sets up at room temperature, looks amazing, I'll find the url

    Chassis/Suspension
The handling is horrible, we couldn't make any changes to the suspension due to the rules. The front is still UFO setup. The camber needs fixed badly, and we need to drop the car by literally 6 to 10 inches, no joke it looks like it's lifted, I think we took out well over 1000 pounds. Possibly upgrade the bushings etc...
    Fix---
-2bennet has a full suspension setup http://www.2bennett.com/body_5000_200_suspension.html, pretty expensive at $2k but you get adjustable shocks front and rear, coilovers and the really nice camber plates.
I've also looked at the DIY write ups on the suspension but I'm not sure if it would be much cheaper, or more reliable??
    Brakes
Right now we really like the 17z's up front with the C230 disks, cheap parts, we only pay $110 per caliper rebuilt and $50 for the drilled rotors. Only problem is the pads are really expensive, hawks are $250 per... Thinking about changing to Wilwoods, they have cheap racing pads, even though the setup is more. I'm not sure if I need more in the rear, seems to be fine stock, the car is so heavy in the front.
Need to add a bias valve though.
Need to change to wheel studs instead of bolts, bolts are the worst during a pitstop, I saw a conversion kit somewhere.
    Wheels/Tires
We are running an old set of speed lines, they are 17x8". They have an odd drop step in the wheel though and I think that they are close to a 16" wheel on the inside, we really had to grind down the 17z's!
We run a 180 tread rating tire, so we have a few different sets that we like, that's pretty easy.
We need to find one more set of lightweight wheels, perferebly 9 or 10" wide, we run 255's right now.
    Engine
This is the big one, I believe our timing belt skipped last year and crunched some valves. We race street tracks, usually around 2 miles in length. We need good reliable power, not crazy drag power, more revs the better. we are on a budget so we can't get to exotic.
    Fix---
Head: Thinking stock valves, springs etc. Repair them and surface the head
Block: Try and get by with what we have, it's a 200K mile stock short block
Exhaust: Upgrade the manifold, 3" downpipe, right now it's a stock down pipe with 3" exhaust out the back now muffler. Maybe do a side pipe out the b pillar passanger side.
Turbo: Thinking Garret BB possibly GT 3071 or GT30r not sure.
Wastegate: maybe Tial drop in
Ignition: Deffinetly coilovers or ls2 coils
Intake: one of the cool redisigned jobs for the 3b??
ECU: Deffinelty VEMS I think, V3 harness start from scratch
update 1/28/16 Ordered the Vems V3 and the Twin shield harness
Update 1/29/16 Canceled order with vems.hu, reorder through Marc at EFI Express
Intercooler: Not sure, craigslist special, custom piping with v bands?? Really like v bands for race repairs, makes it much easier

    Gearbox/Clutch
Gearbox is making metal and leaking badly at the input shaft seal. Would love to put a dsg in this!!! but way to hard I think. Probably just pull it and rebuild, it's the 5 speed. We spend most of our time in 2nd and 3rd.
    Fix---
Clutch masters said they had an aluminum flywheel and custom cluth setup, seemed the cheapest good route. Right now we have a kevlar cluth on the stock flyweel and pressure plate.

    Fuel System
Right now it's the stock tank and pump, fuel regulator etc...
    Fix---
Would love a Fuel safe setup, dry break, dual 44 pumps and regulator, not sure if it makes sense to spend money in this area yet.

    Interior/Driver

    Fix---
Would love to switch to wilwood pedal box on a slider, instead of the seat on a slider. That way the seat could be pushed back further helping with the front weight issue.
Need to ditch the factory cluster, it's to hacked up. I've been looking at the AIM system , even the GT Wheel http://www.aim-sportline.com/eng/products-car/gt-steering-wheel/index.htm or the MXL dash. Also the Dash2Pro https://www.race-technology.com/gb/racing/products/display-products/dash2-pro. Both work with the vems inputs, the wheel would be pretty trick.

    Setup
    Fix---
Need to get this car to handle better, need to lower it, camber around 2 degrees or so, balance it better, not sure???

    Aero
Need some cool aero items, doesn't make that much of a difference I don't think, but looks cool
    Fix---
Front lip, rear wing, diffuser, who knows. Possibly try and make a completly new bumper, the factory one looks horrible without the chrome trim


::We have races coming up soon so I'm in high speed mode, any ideas are greatly appreciated, no mater how crazy, I even dream about running a compound diesel style dual turbo system, maybe next year. I'll choose what we do by the concensus of whoever chimes in.
Thanks in advance... I'll include lots of pictures and videos
Attachments
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Last edited by gregplatt on Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby the german » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:39 pm

It sounds like you are into endurance racing, so I'm going to give some basic suggestions geared toward that.

You have a lot of ideas which are cool, but lack focus. If you try and do everything at once you will get bogged down in the project and never make it to the track.

Endurance racing is about consistent performance and strategy. Unlike sprint races where a tweaked out motor and driving 110% on every lap is rewarded, in endurance racing this will more often than not lead to a DNF due to equipment or driver failure. Focus on the basics first: creating a reliable machine that you can turn consistent lap times with.

Build a solid, reliable motor with reasonable performance that will get you out on the track for a long time. Keep the stock transmission and just rebuild it or find a used unit in good shape. Use the shekles saved to invest in a decent set of dampers. Go through the car and replace all of the 25 year old wear items (like all of your suspension bushings, motor, trans, and diff mounts, etc.). Your idea of going to Wilwood calipers is not a bad one; at $250/set of pads you will quickly make up the difference.

Then get out on track and see what breaks or doesn't work very well. Read up on suspension dynamics. Play with car setup to tune your handling characteristics. Try different tire options and see which one you like best.

Once you have that sorted, start working on the cheap and easy incremental improvement items. Dropping weight is a good place to start. You have a long way to go before you should even start thinking about the more exotic ideas on you list like swapping in a DSG.

Hope that helps! :drive:
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby Aktapod » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:25 am

Welcome! This is AWESOME! Just out of curiosity, was this originally a silver car? And do you know what color interior it had? Just want to know if one of my twins went on to become a racecar. :D

I do agree with sentiment above. Reliable power will go much further than shaving off seconds of a lap, and then having to deal with a component failure. If you are rebuilding the head, I'd switch out at least the exhaust valves for some aftermarket variation, as the stock sodium-filled valves have been known to drop on occasion. I'd consult one of the more experienced members of this forum on the matter, or the thread we had recently as to the specifics.

You may also consider swapping in the slightly more aggressive cams out of a 7A to help out the top end, as well as stiffer valve springs if you'd like to increase the rev limit to slightly north of 8000.

If you're interested, there are some fiberglass fenders available from Custom Auto Craft. The company is just starting up again after being closed for a year or so, so I would allow some time to let Paul get situated and ready to take orders. I'm not sure of the weight benefits, but the option is there if you like, and he was very reasonably priced before he shut down: http://homepage.internet.lu/customautoc ... LETTER.htm

Hersh Performance and Racing, run by forum member Angry Taco, could hook you up with some poly bushings and drivetrain mounts if you want to lock your drivetrain into place, regardless of what coil/damper solution you opt for.

Lastly, I know even MTM had issues with grenading their gearbox a few times in their 24-hour 200, causing them to DNF. Another option for the gearbox would be to swap out the stock 016 for the more robust 01E. Now, it doesn't drop swap right in, and they have their own issues, but the gears are much stronger than the 016. You would need a new flywheel, clutch, some adapter components, etc to do the swap. The turbo's you've listed would be fine for a street car on an 016, but I'm not sure how the it stands up to the constant abuse a racetrack will give.
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap
- 2002 Audi S8
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:06 am

I completely agree, thanks for the advise. We ran pretty well but since the engine needs some work sounds like a good tike to do some lite upgrades. Really just want mid 400hp, with good handling. Prioritizing things I'm focusing on the engine, gearbox rebuild and suspension.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:18 am

Kevin, this was a maroon car with tan interior. It came out of colorado and eastern Washington. It's really a fun car to race, has some interesting characteristics. Also everyone races bmw and mustangs etc... it's fun to have something different. I'll check out the autocraft site, the stock fenders are super lightweight, the hood though is a brick. I'm not sure what turbo to go after, the 3071 seems like plenty with good spool up, maybe I'm wrong though. I'd love to do a lot of head work, but I think that the money spent would be better other places for now. I'm also trying to get a 200 trans am shifter replica from 2 bennett. Also I have another question 3b, were thinking about setting up the engine bay for quick engine gearbox swaps, like 10min. The front clip would be quick release, 1 harness connector, quick release drive shaft and quick releqse mounts, future upgrade.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby pilihp2 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:23 am

You're going to overpay by a huge margin for anything from 2bennett. Just as a heads up.
Do you run 91 on the track? The 3071 is not much better than a k24 on 91 IMO from first hand experience

This is awesome by the way. So friggin awesome.
-Phil
87 5ktq - 20vt
91 v8 5spd - I guess I'm a masochist
05 S4 - "Daily"
16 KTM 690 Duke - 2 wheeled hooliganism

-Terrible at responding to PM's
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:31 am

pilihp2 wrote:You're going to overpay by a huge margin for anything from 2bennett. Just as a heads up.
Do you run 91 on the track? The 3071 is not much better than a k24 on 91 IMO from first hand experience

This is awesome by the way. So friggin awesome.



It's a 100% track car. That's the info I need, 3071 sounds like it can make an easy 450hp and spool at 3300 rpm which sounds good, but maybe that's not real life. Typically the car is ran at 3000 to 7000 rpm I'd say, pretty much in 2nd and 3rd gear at the rev limiter. It's hard on the engine and that's why we need the rebuild. Do you think the 30r is the way to go? How about tubular exhaust manifold vs cast rs2 replica stuff? again searching for a solid 450 hp.
2bennett is crazy expensive, but they have the parts sorted out and ready to go. Looking for alternatives that work and are cheaper. There suspension setup is turn key, but 2K is a lot I think.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:36 am

20150515_180647.jpg
Fire system mount
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Interior
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Original Car
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20150515_180653.jpg
Dash, notice the wood trim, a little bit of class!! Plus the dash and center stack is wrapped in Alcantara
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:41 am

A Few more pictures from the original build.
20150515_180704.jpg
driver's position. We stripped the car completely of the sound deading, lots or work. The interior is painted with Dupont single stage factory pack white
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20150515_180710.jpg
RaceTech composite seat. The seat is on dual locking sliders, plus there is an adjustable rear seat brace on the roll cage that can be adjusted during drivers changes
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20150522_124633.jpg
17z 6 pot calipers, we can get these for only $110 each rebuilt in raw
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when we were working on the gearbox, constant issue
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20150602_181734.jpg
brake setup, no adapters because they weren't allowed, just some grinder work
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:47 am

in primer, notice there is no sunroof, we re skinned the roof, only 91 200 20v with no sunroof I believe
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20150608_102531.jpg
fresh paint, these aren't vinyl graphics, it's all paintwork. We copied the audi v8 dtm car paint, like it better then the trans am look
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20150611_231733.jpg
off to a 24hour race, one of my friends that helped run the pit crew
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:51 am

Audi-V8-Quattro-DTM_6.jpg
Audi-V8-Quattro-DTM_6.jpg (163.35 KiB) Viewed 6272 times
This is the paint inspiration.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby the german » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:59 am

I didn't realize those had an 016 and not an 01e from the factory. Definitely go for the o1e swap.

Car looks good. The juxtaposition of the full dash in an otherwise completely stripped and clean interior is hilarious to me.
Kirk

1990 ABZ CQ
1990 lifted CQ
2005 S4 6MT
2011 A4 2.0T Avant (ok, it's my wife's car but it's sexy and I love it)
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby chaloux » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:55 am

3071 will not spool by 3300. Maybe in 5th. Unless it's billet, and by that I mean HTA and not Garrett's own GTX. Xona or EFR for ultimate spool and power.
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
DEATH by rust - 96 Audi A6 Avant 2.5l TDI
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES
DEAD :( - 1996 S6 mit TDI
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby chaloux » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:10 am

I'd also put inconel exhaust valves in. Stock size to avoid cutting seats.
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
DEATH by rust - 96 Audi A6 Avant 2.5l TDI
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES
DEAD :( - 1996 S6 mit TDI
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby chaloux » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:16 am

And for intercooler, don't go eBay core unless it's actually good. Treadstone is the cheapest of the good brands. And there's a very nice large model that fits perfectly in the 200s, Chris can chime in on the model #, I don't remember it off hand.
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
DEATH by rust - 96 Audi A6 Avant 2.5l TDI
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES
DEAD :( - 1996 S6 mit TDI
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby chaloux » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:18 am

Fuel system... Single 044 in tank is lots for the turbos you're looking at. Maybe put two in one of Nick's dual baskets as a failsafe.
Matt

01 Allroad 6speed - RS4 clutch, catless downpipes, stuklr tune
04 Jetta TDI - DC stage I clutch/14lb fw
DEATH by rust - 96 Audi A6 Avant 2.5l TDI
GONE :( 87 4ktq - 4 FOX SNAKES
DEAD :( - 1996 S6 mit TDI
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby lorge1989 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:40 am

I'm confused how you are going to put a huge turbo, upgraded internals, full coilover suspension amoung other things and not be killed when you get to tech. Seems to me they will hand you a hundred lap penalty for pulling up with a car like this.

Edit, I see you are doing a different series. I have no idea about. Proceed.... :D
1988 Audi 90Q 1.8T 20v megasquirt'd and Holset'd
1994 Audi 90Q V6 oil burner, soon to be ABZ
1978 GMC High Sierra

http://dubsinthebuff.com
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:58 am

lorge1989 wrote:I'm confused how you are going to put a huge turbo, upgraded internals, full coilover suspension amoung other things and not be killed when you get to tech. Seems to me they will hand you a hundred lap penalty for pulling up with a car like this.

Edit, I see you are doing a different series. I have no idea about. Proceed.... :D

Luckydog is a new series created by people that were part of chump car, rules are more open and you run qualifying laps for grouping. Irl is just power to weight. If we run a chumpcar rqce we can run "ec" which is more fun. But good point. They used to freak out about our brakes
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:00 am

Should I be switching to an AAN head for Vems?
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby loxxrider » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:26 pm

No, keep the 3b head. It makes no difference once you are on vems other than your cam synch signal will come from the (otherwise) not used distributor rather than the trigger up by the cam gear like on the aan head.

I will weigh in soon with my opinions on the rest of this when I get a minute.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby pilihp2 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:28 pm

loxxrider wrote:No, keep the 3b head. It makes no difference once you are on vems other than your cam synch signal will come from the (otherwise) not used distributor rather than the trigger up by the cam gear like on the aan head.

I will weigh in soon with my opinions on the rest of this when I get a minute.


Same.
-Phil
87 5ktq - 20vt
91 v8 5spd - I guess I'm a masochist
05 S4 - "Daily"
16 KTM 690 Duke - 2 wheeled hooliganism

-Terrible at responding to PM's
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:37 pm

loxxrider wrote:No, keep the 3b head. It makes no difference once you are on vems other than your cam synch signal will come from the (otherwise) not used distributor rather than the trigger up by the cam gear like on the aan head.

I will weigh in soon with my opinions on the rest of this when I get a minute.


Thanks, that cleared it up, I've seen it done both ways.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:43 pm

Looking at the Xona turbo's they are probably out of my price range. The Borg Warner EFR turbos look real good and are priced less then the Garrets, at least what I've seen on websites, this might be the way to go. Treadstone intercooler looks really good, priced nice, I think that I'll lock that in for the intercooler. Yes we do run 91 octane right now. We bring our own fuel in barrels, have thought about switching to E85 but that's probably a future item.
IROZ looks like a good way to go for exhaust manifold and divorced dump with a tial 44. Downpipe with v band and some sort of side exhaust to shorten it up a bit. Maybe IROZ could doing something really trick since anything really goes and it doesn't have to be street legal.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:46 pm

Would love to find some good used parts to keep the budget down, let me know if anyone has something I need. I posted on Motorgeek in the swap meet section asking for parts also.
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Re: 91 200 20v Race Car Portland OR

Postby gregplatt » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:52 pm

Here is a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsVSAedl2k of a race. This was last year at Oregon Raceway Park. The driver is Josh, it's his first racing experience ever! He got a lot faster as the day went on. The camera makes it look really slow, but the car is actually moving pretty good. His hemlet didn't fit right also. Just kind of fun to see the car in action. Also notice the factory wire harness, things had gotten out of control with that :o The more experienced drivers could keep up with most cars, except for a BMW 2002 and some 5.0l mustangs.
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