1983 URQ Alpine White/Mocha 20VT / VEMS / EFR

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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:41 pm

ringbearer wrote:Looks great, nice tight packaging. Any room to get that air filter farther forward?

I could , or could run a different air filter . But I was thinking maybe I can do a box around it at some point . I have some carbon fiber ducts from Indy car, maybe I could incorporate those to sweep air up from the valence area ?


Working on getting the fuel pump in. I am going to simplify a little bit under the car and have the pump with an new line out straight to the filter- which will delete the factory plastic lines and be braided high pressure line to metal.
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This fitting for the Inlet is an adapter I made , in the outlet I am going to see if I can get a banjo that will work here . I could run an m12xAN 6 fitting on the pump outlet but I’m not sure if deleting this check valve will be a good ideA
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby ringbearer » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:38 pm

A box with ducting would be great, these small bays with big turbos get so hot. I'd try and keep the check valve to avoid possible drain-back issues. An inline check valve may help in the hose somewhere if you don't want it on the pump.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby my2000apb » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:24 pm

can you fit a 90deg silicone on the compressor outlet and run a bigger filter vertically oriented, tucked just inside the framerail?
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:51 am

Oil is filled
Flushed and filled trans fluid
Brake pads are new in all 4 corners

Getting ready to seal up the fuel pump and stuff once I get a new plastic filter .
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I noticed the connections on the new 044 pump are not the “threaded wire nut” type that were on the stock pump. Will have to figure out what to do here . Could convert FP harness to ring terminal easily but I thought maybe these were supposed to be sealed connections .
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Also nabbed another AAN with SCAT rods
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:48 am

Man this car is just getting the better of me lately , I can’t win with it .
Every single task either requires a part to be sources online , a trip to the hardware store, or a rework of something I already did .

Made a custom harness for he fuel pump since the 044 doesn’t have the proper connections that are the screw on type sealed ones. Took the connectors from a (now) parts car and saved the stock one .
Also sourced a filter from Napa - I’m still looking for the plastic one but I wanted to put a new pre/ filter in before I start the car and probably will change it out soon as the tank has been sitting for a bit . I did change out the gas 2 years ago with ethanol free gas so that should help . I also eliminated any of he plastic hoses but kept the check valve . If I decide to delete the check valve I have all the fittings for it
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Then filled the coolant and found a leak at the thermostat housing . Pulled that out and found that the one I had came with an o ring rather than the larger square edged rubber gasket .
Drained and replaced .
Filled the coolant and found another leak this time at the water pump. So I guess now I will be pulling the intercooler and everything else to replace that also brand new Oring.
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While I was in there I took a few shots of the clearance of everything .
The intake piping length on the drivers side came out pretty good. It’s about 3”
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:38 pm

Back together now and holding coolant
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:18 pm

Had it running today but only for a very short period of time .
ImageUntitled by patrick C, on Flickr

Found a few thing I need to look into ranging from small to big. Ha.
The valve train is noisy, more than I would expect . I don’t know if that’s because this engine has not run in years or what. Everything was oiled when put together then the engine was rotated by hand.
Then cranked the car over with fuel pump relay out and rechecked oil level twice . Then started and run for about 15 seconds, and rechecked. Topped off.
Then started and run for 30 seconds or so. But it still sounds loud to me . Just loud lifters . Oil on the dipstick is totally clean.

Second issue , I screwed something up on the fuel pump wiring . When I shut the key off the pump continues to run. This is with urs4 fuel pump relay. In addition I could literally disconnect the negative battery terminal and the car continues to run. So the ignition and fuel pump still gets power with ign switch off. So I will have to double check my wiring there and figure out what I did wrong . Possible that the terminal “I”15 is wrong for switched power ? Or I traced it back wrong and it’s not really going there .

Third issue, my Power steering fluid pissed out of one of my hose connections and he hose is already tight .

Lastly not necessarily an issue but I thought in MT cars the relay in position 8 was not needed , “AT lockout” relay. But that is the only way my starter would work . I double checked my wiring and I have the wire from the ignition switch running to the fuse panel at F50Z then comes out at E50A and runs to the starter .
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So a couple things that seem fixable , one thing that may or may not be an issue but will have to come back and recheck .
On the good end lots of progress . Still need to finish the throttle cable .



For the throttle cable I plan to make a new hook and crimp it on . I have everything measured out for length . Will clean up this donor pedal and find out if there’s anyway to chisel out what’s left of this old bushing and replace
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Also had to extend this bracket so I copied it from aluminum. Not as clean but it’ll work
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Tue May 01, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: the car running with key off.

If I test the ignition feed to the ecu, I have 0V with key off and 12v with key on. Switch off and 0v again. So the switch seems to be working best I can tell.
If I start the car and then turn the key off with car running, the car continues to run. this means to me that.
* The ignition still has power
* Fuel pump is still running
* ECU is still firing injectors with the key off so the switched +12V wire is still hot.

Something has to happen for that wire to stay energized when it shouldn't?
Is it possible for a relay to do this?? I've never seen it before. Im wondering if somehow a relay is wrong or bad and causing issues. Has anyone ever seen this? I haven't

Ideas list.
*short to ground somewhere ?
*possible some cracked brittle wire has come into contact with body or ground
*alternator issue ?
*relay issue ? (Can a relay stay closed? After being powered up,? )
Wtf
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Lucky » Tue May 01, 2018 5:08 pm

When you pull the key out or open the door will it shut off? Maybe something is wired on a circuit like the radio or power windows that will function for a bit when the car is shut down till a door is opened.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby vt10vt » Tue May 01, 2018 7:21 pm

Afterthought wrote:Re: the car running with key off.

If I test the ignition feed to the ecu, I have 0V with key off and 12v with key on. Switch off and 0v again. So the switch seems to be working best I can tell.
If I start the car and then turn the key off with car running, the car continues to run. this means to me that.
* The ignition still has power
* Fuel pump is still running
* ECU is still firing injectors with the key off so the switched +12V wire is still hot.

Something has to happen for that wire to stay energized when it shouldn't?
Is it possible for a relay to do this?? I've never seen it before. Im wondering if somehow a relay is wrong or bad and causing issues. Has anyone ever seen this? I haven't

Ideas list.
*short to ground somewhere ?
*possible some cracked brittle wire has come into contact with body or ground
*alternator issue ?
*relay issue ? (Can a relay stay closed? After being powered up,? )
Wtf

How is your ECU powered? Is it off the fuel pump relay?

I bet your ECU power is getting fed 12v from two places: from the key and from the fuel pump relay. That would make it so you got a 12/0v swing with the key, but once the car is running the fuel pump relay circuit keeps feeding the ECU because it's then feeding that circuit 12v straight from the battery.

Basically if the two circuits pointed to in red are "touching" you'll have the exact symptoms you're experiencing

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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby vt10vt » Tue May 01, 2018 7:26 pm

You could test this theory by cycling the key with a multimeter on the 12v ECU pin. Cycle the key really fast and if it stays at 12v for 3 seconds (as long as the fuel pump would prime) and then goes off, that's it. You could also play with the priming time in VEMS to make this easier and confirm 1000%.
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Wed May 02, 2018 2:01 pm

So bear with me here as I’m not familiar with all this .
If the Fuel pump was back feeding the relay , I could have just run that wire straight to the pump ? At that point when I shut the key down the ignition turns off and in turn the pump stops when the RPM drops , right ?
But in that case I would be requiring the VEMS driver to run the fuel pump which is not ideal...
or could leave the wiring the same but put a diode in the line so it doesn’t back-feed to the relay

The other unknown is there is a good chance that vems Is not causing the problem and it’s something that was done with the wiring as the car has not run in years , fusebox has been swapped out . Relays changed, etc


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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby vt10vt » Wed May 02, 2018 2:19 pm

Afterthought wrote:So bear with me here as I’m not familiar with all this .
If the Fuel pump was back feeding the relay , I could have just run that wire straight to the pump ? At that point when I shut the key down the ignition turns off and in turn the pump stops when the RPM drops , right ?
But in that case I would be requiring the VEMS driver to run the fuel pump which is not ideal...
or could leave the wiring the same but put a diode in the line so it doesn’t back-feed to the relay

The other unknown is there is a good chance that vems Is not causing the problem and it’s something that was done with the wiring as the car has not run in years , fusebox has been swapped out . Relays changed, etc


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I don't think it's VEMS causing the issue, I think power is getting from the switched 12v from the fuel pump relay onto the ECU 12v supply.

"Fuel Pump Relay" is a bit of a nomenclature because it powers a lot more than just the fuel pump. You *do* want the VEMS driver running the fuel pump, but you want it grounding the fuel pump (not giving it 12v.

The 12v supply to the ECU should be entirely separate from the fuel pump wiring; it should basically go from the ignition switch, through a 5A fuse, and to the ECU.

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2001 S4 6spd Avant blk/blk - stock daily
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby vt10vt » Wed May 02, 2018 2:22 pm

Do this as an easy test-

1.) plug your laptop into VEMS with the key off.
2.) turn the key on (laptop should connect to VEMS)
3.) turn the key off (laptop should lose connectivity to VEMS)
4.) turn the key on, go into "outputs" find your fuel pump output, and "Invert" it (should be a radio button)
5.) burn/write
6.) turn the key off

if the laptop stays connected after you turn the key off in step 6, you can then look for where the wiring is crossed in the factory harness/fuse/relay panels.
-Shawn C.
2001 S4 6spd Avant blk/blk - stock daily
2002 01E B6 A4 Built FYF, Built 1.8T, HX35 ~330whp
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Wed May 02, 2018 3:35 pm

vt10vt wrote:Do this as an easy test-

1.) plug your laptop into VEMS with the key off.
2.) turn the key on (laptop should connect to VEMS)
3.) turn the key off (laptop should lose connectivity to VEMS)
4.) turn the key on, go into "outputs" find your fuel pump output, and "Invert" it (should be a radio button)
5.) burn/write
6.) turn the key off

if the laptop stays connected after you turn the key off in step 6, you can then look for where the wiring is crossed in the factory harness/fuse/relay panels.



ok. That makes sense. I forgot about that wire being a switched ground not a power.
So I see what you are saying, when switched by the ECU it grounds the fuel pump relay , powering not only the fuel pump but also other pins on the bottom of the fusebox as well- O, B87F, H87F etc.

Will give it a try and see if I can find anything
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Thu May 03, 2018 8:16 am

Throttle cable end is finished now .
Small piece of stainless rod that was drilled on the lathe , then heated and bent into the proper shape .
Soldered the new cable in place then crimped . Should work well
Image
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Fri May 04, 2018 12:17 am

Temp gauge setup for running the car [emoji23]
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And working on a permanent one but for lower down , not in the vent . It’s going to be difficult to fit the gauges I have in this car without cutting or modifying but I have a couple ideas and don’t want to alter the dash .
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So a couple solutions and another issue. I fixed the run-on issue, but I the fuel pump and cooling fan do not work.

I'll try to type this so it makes some sense.

I have done a few AAN swaps and always have used B15 to supply the 12V switched power to the harness. So with that in mind I switched the +12V Switched wire to the ECU from I15 to B15. In the diagrams, from what I can see, this makes no difference at all. But I can tell you that it does because the engine does not continue to run now. Odd

Second, the Starter. I was looking into old pictures ad recalled that when I initially got the car I had swapped out the fuse panel with one from a b4 (I think) to see if it would alleviate some weird starter issues. The panel that I put in has one thing different in position number 8 for the AT relay. As soon as I saw the old pic I realized why I needed a jumper for the starter. Swapped back my 'original to this car' 83 fuse panel and the starter behaves as it should.

Now with all that in place when trying to start the car I've realized the third issue.
I purchased the VEMS V3.3 ECU and a VEMS Base harness with the intention of wiring it myself, and had so many things on my plate I later decided to have Marc wire the harness for me because for the price its a no-brainer.

. With the laptop hooked to VEMS I attempted to get the car to start and cannot get it to start it seems because the fuel pump is not coming on with cranking. I verified this using a test light at the 12V supply to the fuel pump. So tried using a jumper and the car fires right up. With that in mind I now see (hopefully the reason) why the fuel pump relay is not triggering on and cooling fan are not working. The VEMS harness that he built for me has the cooling fan built in and relayed but the ECU was never set up for this it was just set up for base audi AAN. So looking in the settings I see that the cooling fan is set to off

Per recommendation above I tried
key on : laptop sees VEMS ecu connection
key off : Loses connection
*no fuel pump prime at any point*
Key on: Invert fuel pump , burn, key off *no fuel pump*


On the fuel pump just to double check I have tried 2 separate relays and cross checked both PN's / one is the older superseded PN but they both have the right connections on them so I’m fairly certain that it’s not turning it on / off.

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Last edited by Afterthought on Fri May 04, 2018 2:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Fri May 04, 2018 1:04 am

If I’m understanding right the cooling fan relay could be driven by one of multiple drivers , in the list I see
INJGroup
SPECFET
I259
S259
P259

Don’t know which one of those it would be run off of so I’ll have to see if I can trace it back . I’m not really finding a real good Manual for setup on VEMS V3.3 if anyone knows of a good handbook I can read point me toward it !
****
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Fri May 04, 2018 4:32 pm

Afterthought wrote:If I’m understanding right the cooling fan relay could be driven by one of multiple drivers , in the list I see
INJGroup
SPECFET
I259
S259
P259

Don’t know which one of those it would be run off of so I’ll have to see if I can trace it back . I’m not really finding a real good Manual for setup on VEMS V3.3 if anyone knows of a good handbook I can read point me toward it !


Ok here is what I have so far.
Cooling fan signal to the relay comes from
Ec36/3 - P259 ch.4

Fuel pump signal
EC36/18 - inj. f ch.32


Image

Edit* on the right track with the cooling fan. Set it to the proper channel and it now works , just like it should Except for that when the ignition is off the fan is on at all times unless I disconnect the battery . So some progress . But still obviously some issue of things staying powered when they shouldn’t . And not sure if it came from my work or was pre-existing

The fuel pump. No change yet . What confuses me is it appears to already be set up in the proper way but is not working . I pulled the fusebox up and checked connections in the bottom and everything is good there . Signal wire (switch ground ) into. “BS” should close the relay
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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sat May 05, 2018 7:17 pm

The current issue I’m working is the when the ignition is on the fan works as it should but when I turn the key off fan starts.
So I did a simple test
Key on, connect VEMS.
Fan is off
Lower fan on set point to 0Celsius : fan kicks on
Raise set point back to 80 c, fan turns off
Turn key off , fan starts.

So I’m trying to figure out if my power supply is wrong or there is some inverted setting in VEMS that I set wrong

I think I’m narrowing down to a few things with the power supply .

Starting at the engine bay . Power comes from the battery and goes to the starter. From the starter, it runs to the 200A breaker at the firewall .
Left = alternator and starter
Right = power out to vems main relay
Everything looks good there . Removed all terminals and tested each individually .

Image

Now
It looks like At the main relay, I have a main power in that goes to one straight through fused (constant 12V) and another switched , fused , power out . So one inlet two outlets but one is switched .
When I test the +12V switched supply it test as it should.
When I remove the small 2 pin connector and test there with cAr off and battery disconnected I should have one leg with continuity to GND (small brown wire ) and one with nothing (small purple wire) . At least that is how I’m reading it .

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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Mon May 21, 2018 7:37 am

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Still trying to trace wires back and figure out what I crossed up.
Tested the small two wire connector that is pictured above . Looks like it triggers the main power on and off. Purple wire is definitely switched and goes to 0V with key off.
Need to go back and test the fan relay now and figure out why it is bypassing the rest of the system . The ignition is turning on and off when it should , but the fan is on with the key off and fuel pump is not turning on at all. Not sure if that’s settings related or not .

On another note , I picked up another AAN engine in good shape and I plan to rebuild it. Came with SCAT forged rods.
Anyone have any thoughts on these two items ,
Valves: stock or oversize?
preferred bearings to order ? Coated ones or OEM ?
I’ve used calico ones in the past but found something odd, that there is one bearing in every set I’ve had that seems to have an tab on it that is slightly misplaced.
Image

The lifters have quieted down after I added some additive then let the car get to full operating temp. Oil pressure and everything else is good, oil is clean.
But I’ve got a nasty sound coming from the bottom end and have my fingers crossed that it’s just the water pump. So I ordered another one so soon I’ll be pulling that to get a look at the impeller .
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:02 pm

https://youtu.be/O9LucjauTGY

Fixed the issue with the “noise” - a fellow Audi nut came by and listened and recommended I pull the water pump. Got down to water pump the water pump and found the issue . Long story but the pump that was in there was wrong , too big on the pulley side and slightly larger on the impeller side . Which caused the belt to be tighter and ran out of adjustment . Installed new and checked free-spin at all ends of range and no issue.
See pics... old vs new impeller
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Old vs new pump pulley side
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So the car will run now smooth , but still have more issues to sort


The fuel pump is not being triggered by the ECU and I need to find the proper channel . Wire comes from ec36/18 pin and the configuration may not be set properly in vems . It’s currently set to INJgroup ch.5 which doesn’t sound right .
Ec36/18 is labeled as Injector F Ch. 32 on the vems website . I’m guessing injector F should be channel “6” not “5”
Image


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Re: Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Lucky » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:45 pm

Pic from my urs4 aan pnp file. Uses injector output ch5. And highlights pin 18.
Hope this helps

*edit* if the picture is fuzzy zoom in it will clearup
Image
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Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:04 pm

Ok . I’m an idiot .
Fuel pump is good now and all the wiring there has been checked .
Car starts and runs with no jumpers or anything .
Last problem I need to figure out wiring wise is the cooling fan.
As soon as I connect the battery the cooling fan turns on. (The switched power that controls the ECU is not on yet) .
I tried running a quick test and unplugged the ECU and then connect the battery. If I do this , the fan does not turn on.
So ive tested and what Im seeing is that the relay energizes the fan as soon as I connect battery power. I'm not sure why or how (if there is a setting in the ECU) that will change this but since the ECU doesn't have power at this point I don't think it has any control over that.



So somehow vems is allowing the fan to turn on . I’m wondering if it would be the P.259 driver somehow (lack of diode or something)
more to come ...
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Afterthought

1983 UrQuattro - http://theprojectpad.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1819&p=72513#p72513
1983 Ur Quattro Amazon Blue / Zebra MC
GMC 2500HD
Afterthought
 
Posts: 845
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

Pat's 1983 URQ Alpine white #603 , 20V in progress

Postby Afterthought » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:42 pm

Update .

Cooling fan is remedied .

Car moved under its own power today . For the first time in years . Drove t out to rinse it off before I put it back on the lift to finish putting the body together .

Lots of dust and few years of accumulation on it. Was worried about metal/grinding dust and bumping against the paint .
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Afterthought

1983 UrQuattro - http://theprojectpad.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1819&p=72513#p72513
1983 Ur Quattro Amazon Blue / Zebra MC
GMC 2500HD
Afterthought
 
Posts: 845
Joined: Jan 16, 2014
Location: Bellingham, Wa

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