Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - July 4th drive vid

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derracuda

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by derracuda »

Mcstiff wrote:Derek, how much is and when are you hitting full boost?


1.9-2.0bar with a 2.5bar spike above 6500 (rev limit is 7k which I hit pretty hard since the tach isn't working :P) basically 15-16psi set with a 21-22psi spike, but that is just momentarily. With how the turbo spools up, I'm pretty confident it'll keep going well into the mid 20psi range before 4k rpm with the WG holding shut.

I got to make a couple datalogs on the way out to my parents place today. I switched to the Keyspan USB adapter, and it is connecting now, but causes my computer to crash about every 15-20minutes. It doesn't crash with any other programming running. So I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling everything *shakes head*



in the first attachment, I go through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (shifting into at 10:42:19), and lift for the first corner at 10:42:21, then you can see my MAP trail all the way from 6800rpm down to 3500 (going too fast for the heavy rain so i left it in third to slow me down via the engine ), go into the corner and go WOT at 10:42:34 with the MAP @ 23.8 and by the end of the next second it's at 150kpa climbing its way to 190-200 where the WG is cracking to hold pressure steady.

I do have a boost spike you can see it reaches 250kpa above 6500 that I'm pretty sure is something to do with my WG setup. I have a stock 200 20v WG spring in there, with the adjuster cranked pretty much all the way down. I'm not sure if that's causing higher rpm flow issues or what. i'll try putting the big 2.2bar spring i have in and see what happens. the turbo is still adjusted for a partial opening (I'm guessing an 1/8-1/4 of it's total travel) being held "shut" with an older jag throttle return spring and a bolt as stop for the arm). I should provide a picture, but my camera is now too far away back home :P sorry guys.

I'm throwing a second attachment on as well, I passed a slower moving car :D



Time has been really short, money is even shorter, so just getting to drive it now is a treat. I probably won't have a lot of opportunities to do anything to the car for a while, but when I do get to drive it, I'll be tweaking a little bit at a time on the tuning.
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speeding-g60
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by speeding-g60 »

derracuda wrote:Time has been really short, money is even shorter, so just getting to drive it now is a treat.


fatherhood.... welcome to it. :)
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Mcstiff
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by Mcstiff »

speeding-g60 wrote:
derracuda wrote:Time has been really short, money is even shorter, so just getting to drive it now is a treat.


fatherhood.... welcome to it. :)


X2
my2000apb
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by my2000apb »

derracuda wrote:if Forza came after GT, then it ain't good ol' ;)

hahahaha touche
billman

Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by billman »

Any pictures of where do you operate the vgt for fast spool? Apparently full closed its too restrictive but even in the middle of the travel it seems too laggy. I am testing it from wide open step by step to closed.

Are you still only with the spring from full closed?
derracuda

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by derracuda »

I made a stop so that the vanes can't fully close. I plan to put an ext. WG pot on it later to make it start to open the vanes up maybe around 12-15psi. I'm pretty sure my boost creep at high RPMs is because the turbo isn't opened far enough.


I took it for a spin the other day with the G-Tech and it recorded a 12.8@ 109.6mph running 15psi :D
nismo

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by nismo »

Very nice. How big/small of a motor will this work with in your opinion?

Thanks,
Eric
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40v4kq
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by 40v4kq »

derracuda wrote:I took it for a spin the other day with the G-Tech and it recorded a 12.8@ 109.6mph running 15psi :D

:woowoo: Sweet numbers Derek. Throw some c16 in it if you still got some and crank the boost up to see what happens.
I think it might be dyno time. This may sound weird, but, i'm glad to see you post on here. It's been way too long buddy.
Dan
1984 Ur quattro
1985 4000 S QUATTRO Crashed 4KQ + 40v S8 engine + tubing bender + My BFF = ;)
1987.5 Coupe GT Special Build
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speeding-g60
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by speeding-g60 »

i know this guys garage that has some LOL.....
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85oceanic
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt - 6spd - 20vt

Post by 85oceanic »

40v4kq wrote:
derracuda wrote:I took it for a spin the other day with the G-Tech and it recorded a 12.8@ 109.6mph running 15psi :D

:woowoo: Sweet numbers Derek. Throw some c16 in it if you still got some and crank the boost up to see what happens.
I think it might be dyno time. This may sound weird, but, i'm glad to see you post on here. It's been way too long buddy.


Agreed! Good stuff Derek!
-Ben-
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-1985 Audi 4kq: Xona 7164 AAN 488whp- -2009 Audi A4 -
derracuda

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by derracuda »

update coming soon 8)
ktownboostn

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by ktownboostn »

351awhp - Battleborn Tested


:barf: :o
a_CQ

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by a_CQ »

Glad to see you're enjoying the car(s) still, D!
derracuda

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by derracuda »

Time for an update?

Where to start..... Time to work on Ms. Audi is still at a premium, but I try and slip it in here and there. I've made a few changes since my last updates, like install a Digidash so I once again have full factory like instrumentation. The rest of the interior has been installed, I ran across some Porsche 944 door handles and fit those as well, and they work very well I might add.
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My goal for the car this year was to make it to the Battle Born quattro gathering in Las Vegas, and boy was it a struggle. I couldn't drive the car down two and a half thousand miles straight with the way the rear tires rubbed inside the fender wells, nor with the shot control arm bushings. To complicate matters with the suspension, I was using the short Koni 8611 inserts with shortened housings, and I don't have money to just buy new full length struts and new coils, etc. So I got cheap and creative, which I'll explain shortly. First up is the Turbo vane controller setup.

As some of you might recall, I was using a spring on the modified controller housing, and pretty much it governed itself based on exhaust manifold pressure, which doesn't provide a stable flow rate through the turbine housing. My solution was a K03 internal wastegate actuator modded to fit. I haven't had my turbo apart for almost a year and in the driving I've done, I was quite pleased to see how clean and good condition everything looked inside.

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The manifold looks to be holding up great physically, just not asthetically, so If I end up keeping this setup long term, I'll get it ceramic coated, along with the turbine housing.

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In order to mount the actuator, i first needed an easier way to attach a bracket that is keyed and won't come undone. What I came up with was a portion of a VW throttle body that I had turned down on one end as an alignment dowel to slip into the end of the vane actuating shaft, and welded to it. A few throttle linkage bits, a cruise control rod and ball socket, some welding, and Voila', something that appears to work :P

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I also made a little ring and charted the opening of the turbo by 1mm increments with scribe marks. The actual opening of the entry area into the vanes is a total of about 9-10mm. Opening the vanes more than that doesn't gain an flow since the max inlet slot size is dictated by the turbine housing, the vanes can only close it up from there. I set mine at a base 2-3mm open, which I will try to close down a touch and see how that work. If you close them all the way down, the vane assembly will touch the turbine housing and be closed, because on the diesel it is the exhaust brake as well, and it doesn't flow well at that setting :P
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This setup starts opening around 5psi, which I've found is too soon. It starts to build boost and if you watch the pressure on a datalog, as soon as it hits 5psi, the boost level drops and response lags fairly badly. It was a bit perplexing at first because everything had to be done short notice and I had no time to figure out how it would work before going to the dyno. With this setup it spools up from about 4k and hits target boost pressure at about 5100 (25psi). From the few other projects I had researched and found results from, it should be hitting 20+psi like a freight train by 4k, and that would be fine with me for now. 5k is a bit too late for not having 600whp :P though my car does feel like a real old skool turbo monster 8)

I also finally welded the bung for the old Tial knock off BOV from the alpine car. It's good to have that thing back, cause it makes wonderful sounds to go with the rest of the car :D
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Next up, the shorty struts. I decided the cheapest and quickest route to getting the car raised back up was to go with full length strut housings. In order to utilize my double adjust Konis, an adapter had to be made to get the shorty struts to full length. I'll let the pics do the talking.
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After the strut change, I also installed 034 delrin control arm bushings to keep things in place. My last puzzle piece was the springs. I'm fairly happy with the current spring rate, which should be just under 300lb/in for the rear, and just over 300lb/in for the front. It rides well and responds nicely. The springs are cut 5k rear springs once again. I found a really nifty spring calculator to play with.
http://www.pontiacracing.net/js_coil_spring_rate.htm

my springs are 8" tall in the front, and 9.5" in the rear. they are basically the same wire dia., so the additional length softens them up.

Next post, the trip....
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85oceanic
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by 85oceanic »

Winning! Great update man! That turbo looks so crazy inside! I still don't quiet understand how VGT is suppose to work.
-Ben-
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-1985 Audi 4kq: Xona 7164 AAN 488whp- -2009 Audi A4 -
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Mcstiff
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Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Tested

Post by Mcstiff »

Smaller opening higher gas velocity (quicker spool) and limited flow; larger opening lower velocity and maximum flow.


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rallynz

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by rallynz »

I like your strut fix...I remember discussing that last time we chatted...seems like that concept worked!
derracuda

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by derracuda »

Battle Born quattro 2011, a trip to remember. Epic by my standards in that more than 2500 miles was driven, almost nonstop, in a car that I've heavily modified, and not been able to put much bug flushing time into. There were no incidents or accidents. Ms. Audi went to the dyno with her chin held high and put down decent #'s, then kept trucking for the rest of the trip. She crossed several mountain passes, a couple deserts, a few hours of sustained 100mph driving, turned a best of 22.3mpg, wasn't uncomfortable to ride in (though A/C would be nice in the future), got lots of compliments, and in general, put a smile on my face for all the work that's gone into what she is now, for the last 4 years or so.

Dateline - Monday, Sept. 19th, Derracuda had been strategically planning the proper modifications to get his car prepared for the long journey ahead, had the last of the items on the list about ready to nail down, and BAM, food poisoning ruined it all. Out sick all of monday, and barely back online tuesday to finish up the day job end before leaving. A braided brake line had to be replaced as one of the fronts was too long and had rubbed a good way through the braid, and was waiting to play roulette with stopping in time. The rear suspension was apart, no power for the laptop to tinker with fuel and timing on the trip, a weeping turbo coolant line needed attention, and an alignment. Enter the Hero, Ben Stauffer(extremepath90) of La Grande,OR. He worked all day, drove 5.5 hours to arrive at my place at 6ish pm, and we attended to the car until 1am. I wouldn't have been able to get the car together without your help Ben, thank you very much 8)

We went to bed by about 1:30am, got back up at 6:30, took the car to the alignment shop to get everything pointed back in the right direction, and then went off to get food and snacks. Meanwhile up in Seattle,Wa at about 4am, Todd Barene(Tbar) left to meet up with us in salem about 8-8:30am. My car was ready shortly thereafter and we filled up with fuel, procured a fire extinguisher should the unthinkable occur and then rolled out. Full steam ahead to the south!
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Todd has a super clean and shiny 200 20v 8)
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The day went well, we made stops about every two hours to pop the hood and visually check things out. This stop was around Corning,Ca
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We cleared about 580 miles from Salem,Or to Auburn,Ca where we met up with Dan (40v4kq), to be welcomed with fresh off the grille Burgers and pasta :D We all got a good nights rest after roasting in the cars the day before (above 100F with no A/C) in the air conditioned goodness of Dans home. Got up around 7 and got ready to press on.
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mm, bugs
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The agenda for thursday was head to Fremont and get Ms. Audi on the dyno to see what crazy uncle Derracuda has been concocting and building, to see if any of it really worked. Coffee got our minds working and southwest we headed from the Sacramento area. As we headed to the bay area via I80, I remembered that 2bennett was right off the Interstate and they always have a plethora of Audis there, so why not geek Ben and Todd out since they've never been :D
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Andrew was there and came out to look the cars over and socialize. A couple of the mechanics there was checking out my build and one of them even has the same turbo on his supra :P We spent a good 40 minutes there and then hopped back in to hit up Fremonts Audi specialists.

We get down to Fremont about lunch time, make a couple changes on the car to accommodate a solenoid for wastegate control, and strap her down to the dyno 8) It was all happening so fast that I could barely take it in. All these years and finally, something of mine was going on a dyno. The man of the hour, Nate Stuart, strappin' the girl down for a beating she won't soon forget. When I stomp the loud pedal she moves out trying to escape the memory of being tied down in that hot box of a dyno room.
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After a preliminary check over, and a partial run to get an idea of where things were sitting, and then he gave her a rip. Since I am normally driving the car, I only hear it from the inside. From the outside is a completely different experience. Any of you can ask Ben, so long as the windows are up, the car is super drivable and the sounds inside won't drive you batty at all. We had to drive with the windows down just to keep cool, so earplugs saved the day for the ol' ear drums. Back to the outside of car sound experience. It's like thunder on wheels. I've heard some good 3" 5cyl exhaust action, but this is something different, and I'd say the same thing even if I didn't build the exhaust myself. It's deafening, but in the most satisfying way possible. An aural assualt that makes you really contemplate taking the earplugs out to fully experience the last zones of hearing frequency get blown out of your hearing range. I got goosebumps even! I might say I was a tad bit excited to see my car reach this place and be exercised as she was.

We started off at about 215whp, and after a number of runs, worked her up to a best of 351@ 7250, about 300lb/ft, and 25psi max. Here is where you can see how the boost takes a dip once the vanes open up. It has a nice upward trend and then at 5psi, bows out until flow overcomes that new flow ratio in the turbine housing. We ran CA 91octane, it was rather warm and my intercooler would go from 45c to 90c in one pull, so I think that it's the weakest link at this point. Not enough air flow over it or not enough capacity for this turbo. We'll see what comes of it if I can get the turbo to boost up quicker like I wanted to see.
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I will play with the actuator setup some more and hopefully get better results. Otherwise I may... have to build something different :o

I also had the pleasure of meeting up with a friend of mine, Maarten, from nowhere else other than Amsterdam,NL, as he was in the bay area on a business trip, stopped by 034, and I get a text from him! What a great surprise :D All the way around the world to end up shaking hands at a chance occurance.

After the dyno session, we hung around and chatted with Sam and Nate, had a good time and checked out 034's GTI-RS, which is a monster machine. Impressive build and beautiful craftsmanship with all the custom work needed to put that thing together. We fueled up again about 9pm and headed out with Bakersfield in mind, putting us closer to Vegas in hopes of avoiding too much heat for the day. We made it to just outside of Bakersfield where we found three full hotels, and one not full Motel.... the Motel Cinderella

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I think that's it for part 1 of my BBQ trip installment tonight. Old Man Derracuda has a bed time now! :P
ChrisAudi80
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by ChrisAudi80 »

Awesome write up, Derek. Cool you got to meet Maarten.
96 S6 auto
95 80Q AEB VEMS
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loxxrider
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by loxxrider »

What he said ^^^ looking forward to hearing more!
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
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a_CQ

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by a_CQ »

Very nice, D. Why couldn't you simply get taller springs instead of modifying the insert mounting if you will? Isn't that the whole idea of shorter shocks, to be able to lower the car and have enough travel and not bottom out?

I need to come with something similar with regards to bump setting on my KWs. Sneaking a tiny 2mm allen wrench between the housing and CV boot every time I want to change it is pita. Need to build something that will stay on there and allow easier adjusting.
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85oceanic
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by 85oceanic »

This trip was really awesome, First time I ever spent any real time in Cali and of course Vegas! I can attest to Derek's car, it was comfy to the very last mile, not to mention fast.
-Ben-
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Audilard
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by Audilard »

Do you have the actual dyno plot?
Darin
1989 80 20vt
derracuda

Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by derracuda »

Audilard wrote:Do you have the actual dyno plot?



Darin - The third pic from the bottom is my actual dyno plot :P it was the second to last run and it says 349hp, but what's 2whp amongst friends :P

Peter - When you only have 5.6" of strut travel, you can only put so tall of springs before they top out :P with the previous spring arrangement, 7" on the fronts and 8" on the rear, the front suspension was only compressed 1.75" and the rear just over 1". that's not much in the way of upward travel and caused a lot of lifted wheels entering parking lots. The car realistically needed to be lifted 1.25" and that wouldn't work with the short strut housings. The geometry of the suspension was all out of whack with the stock subframes as well. The only thing it did well at that height was look good. If i could actually get time to finish my tubular subframes, then I might be able to lower it back down a bit. though I need to find a way to bring the wheels inboard a little bit so they don't rub so much.
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pilihp2
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Re: Derracudas zermatt 20vt,6spd, 351awhp - Battleborn Teste

Post by pilihp2 »

Looks like you guys had a great trip. I'll have to meet up with you guys halfway down and caravan out there next time.
-Phil
87 5ktq - 20vt
91 v8 5spd - Why?
05 S4 - Gone and very much so forgotten
14 TDI Touareg

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