Help me get my 4000 Started! More Help Needed

[jretal]

Before I light it on fire and watch my hard work burn to the ground!! :-P

I have an email in w/ Nate and am working with him on trying to find a solution, but also wanted to post up here to see if you guys have any thoughts.

I received a tune from another 4000 member who has the same ECU/tune setup as my 4000 to use as a starting point to see if we could get my car running with that. Wiley came over on Thursday last week, and we spent an evening beating our heads against a wall! Thankfully, there was beer and a really shiney nice car there to keep us calm.

What we found: When I did get the car idling/revable (which was an improvement on a month ago), it was pumping out a ton of unburned fuel. As the idling/running got progressively worse, we pulled plugs. We found that the #5 cyl had fuel pooling in the dish of the piston. As attempts continued the car got worse and worse and just wouldn't run after a while and just cranked. So we gave up for the night.

ECU is a Ic and was sent to 034 to have it converted to an I5 ECU (was originally setup for a 4cylinder). I did run a log, but obviously have absolutely no idea at what I'm looking at.

For some reason I can't attach the excel file of the log or the tune (says the extension isn't allowed), but can email it to those willing to help. Any help you can offer is REALLY appreciated. Need this to be done if I want to even consider getting the car to carlisle.

Thanks all!

-j

[EDIGREG]

Is the vacuum signal to the ECU map sensor connected? You can easily tell by looking at the vacuum the ECU is seeing in the logs

Moved this to automotive forum BTW

[jretal]

YGM, Ed... not seeing anything but MAP sensor inputs on my log...

[EDIGREG]

Well, hard to tell what is going on, but the first thing is your MAT is stuck at -13*, so it is dumping fuel because it thinks it's very cold. I would get that fixed, or at least "trick" your warmup enrichment table to not add any fuel until you get the sensor input fixed.

Your ECU is definitely seeing MAP, I would double check for vacuum leaks though - looks like you're only pulling about 10 inHg at idle.

I've attached the log here for others

4-24-13.xlsx

(121.74 KiB) Downloaded 1666 times

[jretal]

Thanks for attaching! Any tricks to doing that or are you using your forum powers?

That log was when I had the entire intake system open (i.e. no intercooler and turbo hook up plus an open vac port). I had the car running before like this on the Ib (not correct, obviously... but got it from the temp garage to my house adequately).

I will look into the MAT sensor and see what's going on... that might explain the overly rich running. I have that sensor in the neck on the coolant flange on the head iirc... or maybe the back of the head. Can't remember. This is one problem with not tinkering w/ this stuff a lot, as I forget what I did... lol.

Appreciate the help!

[EDIGREG]

I had to change the forum permissions to allow excel files to be attached.

Not sure what you're saying about the coolant temp sensors? You mean you put the MAT connector on the wrong sensor?

Looks like your o2 sensor isn't working correctly either - ECU is not seeing AFR

[jretal]

ECU isn't connected to hte 02 sensor. Never was, and didn't think it was required.

RE: MAT sensor - I'm babbling... trying to think out loud. I had a sensor in the coolant neck on the front of the head, and believe I had one installed on the back of the head as well. Can't remember. But I was messing with things at the back of the motor and might have messed that up.

Makes sense that it's flooding things considering it thinks it's -9*F in the motor vs. 60*F outside (when running the log) and the ECU is telling it to dump the contents of the gas tank into the engine (ugh). Will tinker with that tonight if I have a moment and report back. I can only hope it's that simple :-\

[EDIGREG]

No - wbo2 is not required for running. But it is required to tune the fuel table.

You can't physically put the MAT sensor into any of the coolant temp sensor holes. Square peg, round hole. The connectors could potentially be switched though.

Just to be super clear, MAT = manifold air temp, the sensor on the intake manifold. Sounds like you're confusing it with something else.

[jretal]

aaannnd, I need to hone my sensor logic/definitions as well... lol.

Thanks for the clarification, Ed! I did some fussing around near the MAT (I always think of it as IAT) as well (threaded into front of my IM), so will see what's going on and if the wiring got messed up, etc.

[jretal]

Ok, checked wiring to MAT sensor to make sure everything was good from ecu to plug. Everything checked out OK. When I look at the monitor, the thing is pegged at -15*C. Is there a way to test the sensor? It's the GM IAT unit. I breathed on it to see if I could get some hot air over it (I'm full of that), but no change.

Looks like I need to find a new sensor. Maybe the local car quest will have one!

Thanks!

[vt10vt]

You could Ohm out your sensor but deff sounds like it's either shot or you've got something in your wiring/connectors that's still off. Pulled from DIY autotune's page (assuming you're using the general GM sensors like MS uses, either way should be closeish). I'd check the sensor and make for sure it's your problem before buying another

Temperature Ohms
48 degrees F 7000
87 degrees F 1930
146 degrees F 560

[vt10vt]

Whoops, posted values for closed element temp sensor, here's their numbers for the open element MAT sensor

Temperature Ohms
48 degrees F 7000
87 degrees F 1930
146 degrees F 560

Edit: Which... are exactly the same

[jretal]

tried to test the Ohms across the two terminals and got literally nothing (multimeter just stayed on OL the entire time). No matter what setting I put my multimeter on, it didn't even twitch. Thanks for the values! I actually was able to find those after a little googling, but given the fact that it wasn't giving me a single twitch, I'm assuming the sensor is shot. Might be from running the car w/o a filter? Who knows.

Carquest ordered one and can pick it up this afternoon. If this $20 sensor gets me running again, i will be very happy. Will also need to upload the original tune 034 gave me when they converted the ECU to I5 configuration, as the tune I borrowed is from a non-updated ECU and is giving me like 70*+ advance while the car was idling... *sigh*. One step forward, 2 steps back.

Keeping my fingers crossed that this fixes the issue.

[jretal]

Alright, need more help... I'm on the verge of grabbing a match and a tank of gas.

GM IAT was dead in the car (probe was loose in the sensor), so I installed a new unit. It is now reading legit temperatures.

Tried to fire the car up again, and I'm getting nothing. I'm getting EXTREMELY frustrated at this point, and have no idea what to look for. Any help you can offer is really appreciated.

TEST 1 and 2 are a tune that 034 put on the ECU. TEST 3 is a tune I got from a fellow 4000 guy. I can get the car to fire up using that tune, but it won't really idle well (and the timing is stupid off the charts).

So I'm at a loss. Any pointers on what to look at or mess with? Essentially, cylinders are getting flooded like no other. After idling like crap. each spark plug is literally soaked with fuel, and the tops of the pistons are a little shiny. I have it all apart right now and am letting it all air out.

What else do I need to change or adjust?

Also, Ed, can you enable the .set so I can attach the tunes?

Thanks!

[chaloux]

I had essentially the same problem but with VEMS. Huge flooding. I adjusted my cranking enrichment and cranking settings a lot and now it fires up great. It took me a while to figure out and I had double checked everything. I was to the point of thinking my cam was 180 degrees out (even though it was 180 out originally and I fixed it).

I don't know where the settings are in 034 but set your cranking enrichment very low and crank. I also stopped the prime pulse. Go up from there until it sputters. Then until it starts but won't idle. And then so it idles. Etc. If you do it this way you'll stop fouling the plugs so it doesn't take forever to try again

[chaloux]

Oh I had to lower my cranking volumetric efficiency to 35 from 40 as well.

[jretal]

Yeah, I'm not 100% where to make those adjustments right now... I posted on MG and The Architect offered phone help, so I'm going to give him a call this afternoon when I get home from work and see what we can figure out. Going to need to go steal my buddy's trickle charger again so I can power up my battery, as I've been doing a LOT of cranking, and no idling, so it's not getting charged up.

I have a feeling it's timing related plus the fuel pulsing, as the tune that has me at like 70+ advance actually runs, vs the other that sputters and dies. Sort of diesels a little, and I'm pumping a bunch of unburned fuel out the back.

I am happy that I don't have a cat on the car right now though, as it'd pretty much be destroyed after this fiasco.

[chaloux]

Me either, ecu882 is like alien software. Sorry. but with the architect's help you should get sorted.

[jretal]

yeah, here's hoping. I have a feeling it's all timing related, but I honestly don't know at this point.

Will need to buy parallels for my mac this afternoon and get the 034 stuff working on that computer, as I have a feeling I'm going to need instant internet, and the PC I'm using is over 10 yrs old and a slug has more speed through a salt field than this thing!

[jretal]

Ok, step forward... but step back as well. Looks like I will need a 1 window distributor! I'm currently running a 5 window distributor, and now that it's being used as a cam position sensor vs. timing (like it was w/ the Ib), I am confusing the hell out of the ECU when trying to start the car. Spent some time on the phone w/ the Architect and after he had me unplug the Hall sensor plug, I was able to get the car to fire and stumble a little bit (but not stay running).

So currently seeking a 1 window distributor for an I5 w/ a known good hall sender. If anyone reading this has one, please PM me!

Thanks! As soon as I get that, I can hook that up and hopefully keep messing w/ the ECU and get this thing running/idling. Sooner I can get my hands on it, the less likely I'll have to tow the car to carlisle

[vt10vt]

That makes total sense, at least it's a simple fix! PM angrytaco, I know he has a dist from a JT that I'm 99% sure has only one window. Even if it doesn't bolt straight in you could steal the window wheel from it and stick it in yours, opposite of what this guy did to get 5 windows. If you're going through this trouble any 20v dist NOT from an NF or NG should get you what you want (I believe)

http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php? ... indow+hall

Also, can I buy your 5 window unit/and or wheel from you at Carlisle? I'm in the opposite boat, have a 1 need a 5 for MS. I'd offer a straight trade but I don't want to get into spark control via MS until after Carlisle so I have a better chance of actually being ready for it, afraid to open another other can of worms this close to the date hahaha

[jretal]

1 window as been identified, and currently in route to me. Hope to get it this week and see if I can get the car fired.

In the meantime, I will use the downtime to continue assembling the car. Installing headliners in these things is a ROYAL PITA!!!!!

vt10vt: PM me... we can make something work. But agree, don't add another level of complexity! haha

[vt10vt]

vt10vt: PM me... we can make something work. But agree, don't add another level of complexity! haha

PM sent! I gotta post pics of the can I just finished cleaning up, I have very little scope-control, I'm just lucky I haven't found one local or I probably wouldn't be driving the 200 to PA

[glibobbo21]

Installing headliners in these things is a ROYAL PITA!!!!!

i would never take one out unless it was seriously mangled. good luck

[audifreakjim]

Ok, step forward... but step back as well. Looks like I will need a 1 window distributor! I'm currently running a 5 window distributor, and now that it's being used as a cam position sensor vs. timing (like it was w/ the Ib), I am confusing the hell out of the ECU when trying to start the car. Spent some time on the phone w/ the Architect and after he had me unplug the Hall sensor plug, I was able to get the car to fire and stumble a little bit (but not stay running).

So currently seeking a 1 window distributor for an I5 w/ a known good hall sender. If anyone reading this has one, please PM me!

Thanks! As soon as I get that, I can hook that up and hopefully keep messing w/ the ECU and get this thing running/idling. Sooner I can get my hands on it, the less likely I'll have to tow the car to carlisle

The cam sensor is completely unnecessary, I wouldn't waste time waiting for it. Without it the car has a 50/50 chance of starting on the right phase, which can be annoying for troubleshooting, but you can also switch to wasted spark to ensure it starts every time. Add another trigger for 180 degrees out for each coil.

From there, zero timing, make sure you are cranking between 5-15 degrees BTDC and the thing should fire assuming fueling is close.