Idle problem on Deka's 630cc.

[popdemonic]

I decided to post my problem here since i believe many guys will most likely get used to with these injectors.
Here's my shortly setup.
-stock and healthy AAN.
-GT2871/KKK26 AR.63
-Wagner RS2 'EM.
-3" Exhaust.
-Bosch 044 FP.

I had been running the 440cc big green injectors and got a very good idle.I would say it's almost identical as on Motronic
both with ac on/off.The car is now running on E85 which 440cc is already maxed out so I borrowed the Deka's #60 630cc
injectors from a friend of mine.it seems running on E85,it still required 5bar fpr at the max boost of 30psi.the injectors
duty cycle is 92.6% max on 5bar fpr.Now the problem is i couldn't get a good idle on these injectors.now matter how
much my friend tried to tweak lotta thing on vems.the idle is occasionally hunting up and down when i tried to turn the
steering wheel on stationary or dip in the throttle the rev is hardly to stop until engine stalled.my country is 35-40C
temp around years so the MAT stays around 70-82C when in the traffic,my idle is even worse once the MAT jumped up as
well.here's my recent config.

http://www.4shared.com/file/4KKXqx6Tce/New_Engine6.html

anyone could have a look on my config if there was something missing on it.

Cheers,
pop

[ChrisAudi80]

I seem to remember reading that the SIemens Dekas cannot handle short opening times well. I would look into some higher quality injectors that are stable at low dwell time. IIRC EV14s.
http://injectordynamics.com/articles/low-pulse-tech/

[loxxrider]

I offer EV14s (Bosch motorsport 1200s are my favorites) at significantly lower cost than ID

http://www.FuelInjectorDevelopment.com

Just let me know if you'd like some and I will get you a good deal on them. PM for project pad special pricing.

[EDIGREG]

You should have absolutely no problem idling with those Siemens 60# injectors. Upload a log

[85oceanic]

I ran these injectors before my FID 1200 injectors and I never had a problem with idle. Upload a log x2.

EDIT: FYI you can attach a log directly to your post.

[loxxrider]

Another thing to look into would be IAC valve (ISV) PID settings. Sometimes people screw them up

A log at idle will tell if the problem is fuel or not.

[SEStone]

The Deka injectors are going to have different characteristics at low pulsewidths than your old injectors. They're capable of injecting very small amounts of fuel, but at low pw that occurs at a very different flow rate than 630cc/min. You just have some fuel tuning to do to get them dialed in.

Sam

[themagellan]

Have you checked your g28 and g4 sensors?

[popdemonic]

after putting the new injector deadtime value.it seems everything is going right but again the idle is still not so good.
i need to add more fuel let's say the lambda around 0.90 and keep an idle a little bit higher 1000rpm.once i keep the idle
lowered the idle started to jumpy again.it seems i have some problems with the hardwares when i set the IAC integral minmap
at 30kpa and keep the value running around 0 to -10,when i set the IAC ref curve to keep the value around 0 to -10
sometime it's just maxed out -30 once i decreased the IAC ref curve the value running in the positive side.it' just goes back
and forth.my PID is 15 3 20.the reason i keep the I=3 since i learn that give the more value on I,the idle will drop way too much.

on my friend's car.UrS4 with RS2'd same injectors,he can keep the good idle on his car.only the the differences is he's running
the Aeromotive Stealth Fuel pump with 4bar FPR while mine is 044 with 5bar FPR.other than the idle problem,i can get the
right VE,Ignition on the rest table.let's say i do have only idle issue at the moment.i don't know if anyone ever run the 5bar FPR
on these injectors before.Now i'm thinking to put my 440 big green injectors back and running lower boost at 1,5bar to keep
the injectors duty cycle within 100% and keep the good idle.my country is very bad traffic and hot climate.i cou'dn't drive a car
with a poor idle.any hardwares,parts should i start to look for?this engine is bone stock since 1994 and pretty low miles.i do believe
it only has 50000kms on clock.the n80 is stock too.will have a look on tomorrow.anything else?

Many Thanks for your helps.
pop

[loxxrider]

At that kind of base pressure **edit** you may well be at the lower limits of those injectors... That is ooooold technology

[Mcstiff]

As you're in a warm climate, I'd disconnect/turn off the IAC until you have the idle mostly stabilized. You may try a 4 bar FPR to get more idle PW (like Chris was saying) but E85 should be helping because you need more fuel than with E0.

[loxxrider]

As you're in a warm climate, I'd disconnect/turn off the IAC until you have the idle mostly stabilized. You may try a 4 bar FPR to get more idle PW (like Chris was saying) but E85 should be helping because you need more fuel than with E0.

Good point Ed... oops!

[EDIGREG]

You can get an OE-like idle with the Siemen's 60's on pump gas @ 4bar. E85 should be easy

What is your pulse width at idle?

Really we're just shooting in the dark here without a log.

[popdemonic]

hey Ed,be patience buddy.i'm out for working now and left my computer home.
i will be taking some logs here.i decided to go for bigger injectors with ev14.Chris
can you help me out ;-)?

in the meanwhile,i have a log with 3rd gear WOT pulled(new deadtime values) last night someone please chime in.I
did re-tune on the ve table now since after putting the new deadtime the upper 0KPA table seems extremely rich.

[loxxrider]

Sure I can help if you want those injectors. Now, I don't want you to think you can't get those Siemens to idle smoothly though. I'm sure it is all in the config. If you want the bigger injectors regardless, let me know. The ev14 are phenomenal, especially the 1200s.

[popdemonic]

Chris,
what do you think between Deka's #60 VS FID 1200 which one is easier to make it right on the idle.
Deka is smaller with old tech while the EV14 is bigger nozzle with newer tech on it?

[EDIGREG]

Pop - it is rich all over the map, you need to continue tuning fuel. (Although if you're getting new injectors don't waste too much time tuning with the current ones).

EGO is trying really hard to lean out the mixture but it can only do so much. Remember to turn that off when you're tuning fuel.

There is basically no idle in that log so can't really help you there

[loxxrider]

I have used both and never had a problem getting either to idle. However, the 1200s are extremely easy to get to idle on pump gas... even with the same config settings I was using for stock injectors. I can share those if needed. I can't say if they would work well with a 5 bar reg on pump gas right out of the box though...

Sorry I can't give you any more info than that, but I think the point you should take home is that you should be able to get the 630s to idle smoothly. If you don't need the extra headroom, then it probably makes sense to use them if the cost difference is important to you.

Give us an idle log. I think that will help more than anything.

[UrSobsessed]

Pop, like I told you before and others have said here, your idle problem is more than likely in your config. You need to baseline your idle tune as written up by zeet on QW in the FAQ. It will probably get ugly before getting better. The way your settings are configured, it's no surprise that your idle is chasing it's tail.

That being said, if you are set on keeping it the way it is, look for a possible vacuum leak. Maybe try spraying some carb cleaner around the base of the injector seats to see if there's a leak there. Since that's the last change you made to your HW, perhaps you nicked an o-ring or something...

[mushasho]

I'm currently idling perfect on e85 and Deka's if you wanna import the setting let me know. I could create a config out of my log...

and BTW, Zeet's write up is overwhelming to understand for VEMS first timers BTDT...

[Mcstiff]

I'm currently idling perfect on e85 and Deka's if you wanna import the setting let me know. I could create a config out of my log...

and BTW, Zeet's write up is overwhelming to understand for VEMS first timers BTDT...

log=config+log

[mushasho]

I'm currently idling perfect on e85 and Deka's if you wanna import the setting let me know. I could create a config out of my log...

and BTW, Zeet's write up is overwhelming to understand for VEMS first timers BTDT...

log=config+log

Of course... but I would rip out just the config portion of the log... effectively sending him a .vemscfg instead of a .vemslog

[popdemonic]

Pop - it is rich all over the map, you need to continue tuning fuel. (Although if you're getting new injectors don't waste too much time tuning with the current ones).

EGO is trying really hard to lean out the mixture but it can only do so much. Remember to turn that off when you're tuning fuel.

There is basically no idle in that log so can't really help you there

yes that log was pretty rich all over since i have changed the injectors deadtime and took that log and tuned it once.
i will get the next log later.

[popdemonic]

I have used both and never had a problem getting either to idle. However, the 1200s are extremely easy to get to idle on pump gas... even with the same config settings I was using for stock injectors. I can share those if needed. I can't say if they would work well with a 5 bar reg on pump gas right out of the box though...

Sorry I can't give you any more info than that, but I think the point you should take home is that you should be able to get the 630s to idle smoothly. If you don't need the extra headroom, then it probably makes sense to use them if the cost difference is important to you.

Give us an idle log. I think that will help more than anything.

Chris,
I'm going to switch the FPR back from 5 to 4bar and running bigger injectors.
I got 92,6% DC on current #60 injectors with 5bar FPR,E85 at 396Kpa.if i switched
back to 4bar FPR.i believe it's maxed out.i could get a fair idle now.no more stalled,
slightly drop when MAT up higher.My average MAT is 72C on traffic.I will need
to get the bigger injectors sooner or later though.

Pop, like I told you before and others have said here, your idle problem is more than likely in your config. You need to baseline your idle tune as written up by zeet on QW in the FAQ. It will probably get ugly before getting better. The way your settings are configured, it's no surprise that your idle is chasing it's tail.

That being said, if you are set on keeping it the way it is, look for a possible vacuum leak. Maybe try spraying some carb cleaner around the base of the injector seats to see if there's a leak there. Since that's the last change you made to your HW, perhaps you nicked an o-ring or something...

Hi Dace,

Yes,I will try to get back and read on Zeet's write up again.i'm sure i have vacuum leak around the injector seats.
i noticed there're oil vapour around the injector bases.I don't think my injector bungs are going bad but something
wrong on the o-rings and maybe the Deka's seats are way too small?

[popdemonic]

take 2log files on idle.
one with 5X C deg on MAT.The idle is buttery smooth.i know this's not the best.
another log file is the same config but the MAT jumped up to 7X C deg.the idle
started to jumpy.i'm thinking to swap the FPR back to 4Bar on tomorrow.maybe
the 5Bar FPR caused the pulsewidth too low?